The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Hell of Debating Hell

Awakening G,

I appreciate your graciousness to all, especially as a couple of us well-meaning and ultimately loving folk get a bit prickly from time to time. :wink: Confession time – there was something about your post that rankled me a bit too, only I’m not sure exactly what it was. I think it had to do with the whole “Nothing is as important to God as His glory” theme. Not that you said precisely THAT, in so many words. I’m all for God being glorified, but I kind of cringe at the idea of Him as some kind of glory monger who cares more for His renown than for anything else. I don’t think that was what you were saying, but I’ve heard it so many times that I do tend to read that in, if I’m not careful.

Regarding the idea of annihilation as a loving alternative to ECT, I would agree – conditionally. :wink: If God could do no better, He would face the sad prospect of destroying some of His creatures. If God cannot save, I do think that, in order to be consistent to His nature, He must make an end.

Someone else at the forum once put forth the example of Ol’ Yeller. In case you’re not familiar with the story, Yeller is a heroic dog who’s injured in protecting his family from a rabid wolf. In the end, the family is forced to put him down because of course there’s no cure for rabies. It’s the merciful thing to do. BUT if they could have cured him and refused to do so, we would be indignant! After all the dog has meant to them and done for them, HOW could they DO such a thing??!! The family did the best they could for their beloved companion. They couldn’t save him; they were obligated to put him out of his misery. But what about God? Can’t God do anything He desires to do?

I believe that He can, and because He can, He is, in a sense, obligated by His very nature to do the best He can do for His creation and especially for His children. CAN He save? If He CAN, then He must – not necessarily because of any obligation to us, but because of His obligation to Himself – His obligation to be who He is.

Granted, we haven’t (unlike Ol’ Yeller for his family) done much at all for our Father, and in the long run the most we can do is to reflect back to Him and to one another some of the loving light He bathes us in, thus displaying His glory for all to see. We are His image-bearers. I don’t think for a moment that either you or I (or even the both of us) could in any way approach a successful display of God’s glorious being – that we could display a complete image of God. It takes the whole of creation to do that, and even then I suppose we’ll come up short. I don’t see God so much as jealous of His glory as He is keen to be known by His creatures. To know Him and make Him known IS to give Him glory. On God’s side of the equation, His glory is to save – He is mighty to save, can save, will save. Not only those who see their need, but also those who rush heedless to destruction, need saving.

I once heard an analogy concerning glory, involving an apple tree. The preacher said that when the apple tree is in full bloom, it is displaying all that it is for the world to see – it is in its glory. I disagree. The apple tree in bloom is indeed glorious, but that is certainly not ALL of its glory. It is glorious in the summer with its welcoming shade and its protection and nurturing of its fruit, enfolding it in sheltering leaves and branches, and feeding it from its own substance – from its own body. In the fall with all its glowing bounty, the apple tree shares its fruit with anyone who desires it, and in the process, propagates itself far and wide. Even in its seasonal death, the apple tree is beautiful with billows of golden and flame foliage. The bones of the apple tree as it waits through the dead of winter for its resurrection, form a fantastic fractal sculpture, sometimes playing host to delicate riming of frost, other times adorned with a cloak of soft snow. I think the analogy very apt – the minister simply didn’t take it far enough. It requires all seasons to fully display the glory of the apple tree, but the winter is not eternal (metaphorically speaking). One day there will be spring, summer and fall at once – but no more winter – no more night – no more death.

And that last is a second part of the annihilation of the annihilation argument. Death (not only the first but also the second death – the last of enemies) shall be destroyed. Unless Father will destroy either our memories of, or our love toward those He has commanded us to love, there can be no true joy for us – and no true joy for Him either, who unchanging, loves all the world and who cannot and will not forget them. True joy cannot be, until all those He loves are restored and are reconciled to Him and to one another.

Because of this, I find annihilation an absurdity. (I don’t mean that those who believe it are absurd – just the concept itself is absurd, only they don’t yet see it that way.) The possibility that we, and that God, will cease to love our enemies, I dismiss out of hand. I can’t imagine that even requires a rebuttal in the present company. Regarding memory: obliteration of memory, whilst retaining the identity of the person, is not a thing that can be done. It’s in the same class as the sillygisms (to rob Lewis Carrol) such as asking God to make a rock so heavy He can’t lift it. If He only excised the memories concerning the persons annihilated, how many holes would there be, even in the life of a single person? The problem increases exponentially when we add the relationships between persons and other persons and other persons. I think it would quickly reach critical mass and destroy the whole memories of all the saved, sparing nothing, and that this would not be a thing that God could remedy – just as He couldn’t make an unliftable rock. Ultimately, it was this conundrum that forced the RCC to posit that there is no remembrance in heaven. The only alternative – that Father could and would save them all – was not to be countenanced. Unfortunately, destroying our memories would, it seems to me, require the destruction of all we’ve learned and all the things that make us who we are. We would become a troop of mindless (though benign) zombie idiots. I can’t imagine such people as the sons of God for whose revelation all creation waits with eager anticipation.

Even considering these things, annihilation would indeed be the best solution for God in dealing with those He cannot save – if there were any He could not save. It wouldn’t do, though, to make us, His true children, unloving – or to destroy our minds. It would be better by far to leave us sorrowing in concert with our Father’s own sorrow. If however He CAN save us all, then to posit that annihilation would be an option compatible with divine love is, I believe, ultimately an absurdity.

Kate: Ich bin völlig deprimiert, weil du meine romantischen Kommentaren ignoriert hast :confused:
I am utterly depressed because you have ignored my romantic comments :confused:
Je suis complètement déprime parce que tu as ignore mes commentaires romantiques :confused:

Aber mache dir keine Sorgen, ein riesiger Ozean liegt zwischen uns, :smiley:
But have no sorrows, a gigantic ocean lies between us. :smiley:
Ne te fais pas de soucis, un gigantesque océan s’étend entre nous :smiley:

A question to all: do you think I am mentally ill?n :stuck_out_tongue:

No, but I think you are quite silly! I began a thread with an honest theological inquiry and your sole reply was a vague romantic flattery for a person you’ve never met – and quite frankly, know nothing about, Marc. The kind, thoughtful, and thorough replies from the other posters on this thread obviously will gain my attention over an internet pick-up line. If you ever feel like responding to one of my posts with respect-- showing credence and attentiveness to anything I’ve written – I would gladly respond to you. But no more of these attempts to turn my threads into a Shakespearean sonnet, for romance is not why I’ve come to EU. In fact, I think romance falls on the last of my list for why I would ever join an internet forum.

C’est tout,

Kate

Hi Kate, (See my PM)
Sorry about Marc’s harassment. :frowning: He’s stepped over the line and I’m bringing it up with the other mods…

All the best,
Steve

Good stuff Cindy

I had some thoughts.

a) God is love is explicitly stated. He is also said to be Light. Light could literally mean photons winging their way across the universe (they are, after all, responsible for things looking glorious :wink: …or even looking like anything at all), but i suspect Light is more metaphorical here than literal. Love, however, cannot be anything else…what would it be metaphorical for? God has glory, God is glorious…but God is not defined as “Glory”. Also, as i’ve told an ECT friend of mine when he challenged me on God being love…God is not said to BE justice. He is just, but that’s an adjective. The Bible doesn’t just say God is loving…it says HE IS LOVE. So i’m sorry to have to contradict you, Awakening, but that’s nothing short of Orthodox doctrine on the nature of God. Because of God BEING Love, He is just. Because of Love being a glorious thing, God is glorious. Because Love is beautiful, God is beautiful. In addition, i tend to read the latter part of 1 Corinthians 13 as being characteristics of God. Paul is in a Spiritual state of ecstasy as he writes this, in my opinion, and he is revealing maybe even more than he realised about God Himself.

b) God’s glory isn’t just an end in itself. A sunset is glorious simply because it’s beautiful, but God’s glory is ALSO a signpost to us lost mortals. God’s glory shines out into the universe in accordance with that famous Universal statement from Christ: “When i am lifted up, i will drag all men onto me.” When God is glorified, He is High and Lifted Up. When He is displayed with a minimum of our silliness obscuring the vision, people are attracted to Him, like gravity. I don’t believe God seeks glory to assuage His ego, or address His insecurity. I believe God seeks glory as a beautiful male bird seeks to show off his plumage…to attract the attention of his beloved.

Hi Kate,

I’m very new here so I won’t offer to much advice here, but just to say I sympathise. I suffer from an ocd related condition called scrupulosity (I have a link explaining what that is in my introduction if anyone is unsure), and because of it what you describe relating to final judgement texts I relate to, in fact it is something anything in the Bible can potentially set off my scruples. As a result I have long had a great fear going back to reading the Bible itself, but I have become to start reading again, exposing myself to what causes my obsessive thoughts and anxiety related attacks, but when it happens I’m learning not to fight it or obsess over it, not to let the anxiety grip me but just keeping on knowing what is true and that it’s just my ocd scruples kicking in and ignoring it. It is an on-going process and sometimes I don’t manage to succeed to stopping obsessing and getting into anxiety and panic-attack related events, but it’s getting better.

Now I know you this isn’t your problem, and I didn’t share the above to focus on me, but rather I hope that by sharing a form of my exposure treatment as it relates to my condition, you might see something in it that could be of help to you, as you know universalism is correct and judgement texts are to be interpreted in that theological framework, you can let any anxiety or fear that comes just wash over you knowing it isn’t something to truly fear and read through it, such as the booklet described above :wink: .

Also I think sometimes if you are talking to someone about universal reconciliation it can depend if they are ready to listen (and of course you might need to talk a bit first to see if this is the case) but sometimes people aren’t ready, and it isn’t worth pushing things in that case, like with Jesus and His parables and His silence before Herod or Pilate (not saying other Christians are like Herod though lol, they are not, just an example :wink: ) sometimes people can only accept some of truth and are not ready to accept all of it yet. So sometimes silence or working on areas you agree can be the best approach.

Anyway, I hope some of this can be of help.

That’s a beautiful statement, James, and I think it’s an absolutely correct one, too.:slight_smile:

Hi, Grant, :slight_smile:

Aside from what I’ve already mentioned over private message, I just wanted to add that one of the ways to read the Bible despite fear is to do a majority of reading from devotions and such written by “safe” authors. I find the likes of Max Lucado and Billy Graham–even though they are “mainstream” Christians who believe in hell–to write very comforting and simple devotions, especially in terms of everyday life. I frequently read them and similar authors without fear. I don’t delve into deep, deep Bible study unless I’m feeling especially strong that day, and I never, never research heavily at night, as I know that’s when my anxiety is naturally highest.

Thanks so much for the advice and sharing your own experience with fear. You will be in my prayers, and I do hope you find great comfort here.:slight_smile:

Kate

I’m glad and thank you for your prayers, and thank you for your pm, I very much appreciated it :slight_smile:. I would reply but as a new member it says I must wait for a bit before I send pms, so I will when I can, until then though it was enlightening and uplifting to me, so thank you very much :smiley: .

Peace and grace,

Some years ago I read on a Muslim webpage, that exist a minority of Muslims who don’t believe in “eternal punishment of sinners in hell fire”. But there was no references. Again, after some years, I find a book.

Eternal Hell and a Merciful God? Edip Yüksel, 2003
ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iad_(religie#cite_note-Yuksel-3

Eternal Hell and a Merciful God Edip Yüksel, 2003 on 19.org/2319/hell/

Here is how he read the Quran:

“My doubt is not about the veracity of the Quran, but about the veracity of my understanding of some verses of the Quran. Since I rejected Sunni precepts that require blindly following the opinion of orthodox scholars and clerics, and since I accepted the Quran as the only source of my religion, whenever I encounter a problem with my understanding of a verse that puts it at odds with 4:82, I follow the divine advice to act patiently in seeking knowledge (20:114), ask the experts (21:7) without following them blindly (17:36), avoid wishful thinking and hearsay (53:28), and know that God is the one who will ultimately provide explanation (75:16-19). Sometimes, I attain a coherent understanding within months, but sometimes it takes years and even decades.”

There is a portion named 5:118-119, from Quran.

“I frequently took solace in the implication of the following dialogue between Jesus and God that will take place on the day of judgment:5:118-119 ‘If you punish them, they are your creatures. If you forgive them, you are almighty, wise.’ God will say: ‘This is a day when their truth will benefit the truthful ones.’ They have deserved gardens with flowing streams. They abide there forever. God is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. This is the greatest achievement.”

I am Arminian. I would like to know if Arminians believed in “eternal punishment of sinners in hell fire”? Who want to help me?
Have a blessed day,
John

Hi John,
Yes they do, unless they are Arminian Universalists/Annihilationists.

Arminian free will arguments that point toward hell are harder to refute decisively than Calvinistic arguments, in my experience, though not impossible (as i think it is difficult to argue free will to extremes, because if someone with all knowledge of truth still makes a choice that is bad for them, we say they are irrational, and that makes the choice NOT free, and God promises that the truth will set us free).

Peace and grace,

And thank you. I don’t believe in the eternal torment of the sinners. I advocating annihilationism.
So I am:

  1. Arminian
  2. Annihilationist

Also, I am interested to find annihilationist authors from I-V, VI-X, X-XV, XV-XX century.

Have a blessed day,
John