BA; So now, instead of posting multiple identical threads in different sections, you’re copying and pasting the same post as an entry in multiple threads regardless of its relevance? 
Hello Aaron (not BA)
Adam and Eve were not perfect, they were very good for what God created them, Noah, on the other hand,is the first mentioned perfect person in Scripture. 
I was responding to Sonia who said, “Will our natural physical death cause us to automatically give up those things”
But, since you (Aaron) responded. So here is my response.
If you believe that we have a fallen nature, and that we are incapable of doing good because of some genetic disposition of our animal bodies, then you believe in Original Sin, a 4th Century doctrine which was not believed prior. Since you had to refer to ‘animal’ ‘primitive’ ‘primate’ instincts, you refer to a genetic disorder though you claim to not speak of the flesh being of the body, you have concluded the opposite. Since this doctrine doesn’t truly line up to what the Scriptures say concerning what the flesh is, and that this is not a genetic thing, our natural physical death will not cause us to automatically give up those things. It is all about the will but we were all subjected to the vanity and futility before sin ever was given into account.
That, or we are just misunderstanding each other.
Craig.
Hello Craig. I thought you were ignoring me? Maybe you still are and referring to the other Aaron. How was Noah perfect and Adam and Eve not perfect?
Son of a motherless goat! I knew it would happen sooner or later. Chaos now reigns supreme as BA channels Aaron. 
Aaron not Aaron37.
Thanks John for pointing out the obvious to our confused ‘friend’.
Craig.
The only thing that I’m confused about is whose religious movie is better… Yours, Johns’ or Constantine.
Stick to confusion BA, humor is definitely not your strong suit. 
John.
I pick Constantine. Later brother.
Sin is a disease like cancer which can grow and spread bringing pain and suffering. Relief
can come to a cancer patient when the cancer goes away.
The King James Version used the term “remission of sins” to describe salvation in Christ.
The idea is not to be “declared righteous”, but to actually become righteous through
the remission of sins (lessen or disappear). This is a life-long growth process which is
enabled by the Holy Spirit.
This fits very well with Hell-on-earth view as those who do not place their faith in Christ
find pain and suffering through the corruption that follows one overcome in sin. Happy is
the man whose sins are “in remission” as he finds love, joy, peace, etc. in an Abundant Life
in Christ.
Matthew 26:28 KJV
*For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the
remission of sins. *
Mark 1:4 KJV
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance
for the remission of sins.
Luke 1:77 KJV
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their
sins,
Luke 3:3 KJV
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of
repentance for the remission of sins;
Luke 24:47 KJV
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name
among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptized every one of you in
the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the
Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:43 KJV
To him give all the prophets witness , that through his name whosoever
believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Romans 3:25 KJV
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,
to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past , through the
forbearance of God;
Hebrews 9:22 KJV
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without
shedding of blood is no remission.
Todd
Hi Craig,
You said:
But I don’t believe our nature is “fallen,” for that would imply that our nature is different than it was originally created to be (I rarely even use the expression “the Fall” since, unlike Augustine, I don’t think Adam’s sin had any effect whatsoever on his nature or on the nature of his posterity - and I certainly don’t think we “inherited” Adam’s guilt). I think human nature is good for the purpose for which it was created, and that it is the same today as it was on the day it was created by God. Moreover, I think it’s an oversimplification to label my view of human nature as Augustinian. On the other hand, insofar as Augustine saw a connection between sin and our nature - i.e., insofar as he understood that there is an aspect of our human nature that makes vice easier to perform than virtue (and who can deny this in view of both the Scriptural record and one’s own experience?), I think he was correct. So if that makes me a proponent of the doctrine of “Original Sin,” then ok, I believe in it.
I don’t attribute sin to a “genetic disorder,” though I do see the desires that lead to sin as having a natural, genetic cause. We sin when we yield to desires that are contrary to what our conscience says is right. But the desires that lead to sin are produced by our nature (for we certainly don’t just will them into existence ex nihilo).
I don’t think we can blame anything on the will, strictly speaking, for the will simply carries out the desire of our hearts. But where does desire come from? Answer: our animal bodies/brains. But we will not have these bodies when we’re made immortal; we will have bodies fit for heaven (or wherever you think redeemed humanity will spend eternity).
Here’s the thing, Craig (and this kinda brings us back to the original topic of this thread): Sin, as I think you’d agree, is mankind’s enemy. But it’s not the last enemy, for Paul tells us that death is the last enemy. If that’s so, then when everyone is raised immortal and death is abolished, sin will have already been taken care of - which means those who are raised from the dead will be sinless. Paul even implies this when, in view of this “last enemy” being “destroyed,” he asked rhetorically, “Oh death, where is your sting?” Since he identifies sin as “the sting of death,” it is implied that sin will be absent from humanity after all are made immortal (1 Cor 15:54-57).
My apologies if I over-simplified your view to Augustine’s Original Sin. As so long as you believe that we are limited by a physical nature, for the reason we are what we are, then you are attributing matter as evil which is essentially Augustine’s conclusion without stating it (it was his former religion before he came into Christianity that believed this.)
Sin is a spiritual thing, it is not a physical thing. When we call it our nature, it isn’t speaking about a physical nature but our spiritual nature. Where does this nature come from? It comes from submitting to sin.
Genesis 4:7
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."
Romans 6:16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
So, it has nothing to do with physical bodies, animal bodies, etc. It is all about the will of humanity which has been subjected to futility (sin).
In this case the egg was before the chicken. I believe you are correct, Aaron.
Adam was taken from the earth. He was earthy. The earth was part of the cosmos and the cosmos was made tending toward disorder. Corruption was in the world before Adam. Science gives us evidence of this. Nature also reveals there was physical death in the earth long before there was Adam or his sin.
Adam gets a lot of unwarranted blame.
It looks like we are speaking from different perspectives which have nothing to do with each other.
This all belongs within the Presupposition of man. What you think a man is all dictates what exactly the sin nature is.
If we blame our physical existence for the reason why sin exists, whether it existed before we actually sinned or not then It will be very difficult support this Scripturally.
Yes, it is true, Adam gave opportunity of sin to snare him and as causal consequences followed into this world. Sin causes [evil] death even if [neutral] death was in the garden.
According to the Scriptures, I do not believe that our ability to sin was a cause of our physical existence. As so long as you believe that it is a result of being created from a physical element that corrupted us (whether we are the same today that Adam was) is not the issue.
It was, on the other hand, the reason why God created us mortal, we are mean to die (not just physically) but completely. Without a spirit, there is not soul. Without the body, there is no soul.
1 Cor 15:42-58
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
It seems to me, from reading this passage, that there is something significant about the new body that rids us of sin. According to this passage the old body is: dishonorable, weak, natural, earthy, flesh and blood, corruptible, mortal. The new body is: honorable, powerful, spiritual, glorious, immortal, heavenly. Paul seems to emphasize that our new body will be different in a way that overcomes the weakness of the former. The new body is incorruptible - cannot be corrupted. It is sinless because sin was done away before the destruction of death.
Whether you believe the body has anything to do with this or not really doesn’t matter - the point is that there is no sin after the resurrection; God has no more enemies having destroyed the last enemy (death). Therefore there is no need for judgment, correction or punishment as everyone will be raised purged from any propensity to sin in spiritual, incorruptible bodies.
Todd
It’s more than just the body being renewed. What is it like to be super self-aware? We really don’t know and can’t know until the resurrection. Whatever happens at the resurrection, it’s seems to be instantaneous. I agree.
And let’s not neglect to mention the fact that we’ll also be super savior-aware
Absolutely! That’s part of my argument in critiquing the Murray paper.
Todd,
Indeed that is a good passage, but where you put, “the body” is actually not found in the original, nor is it found in the Greek.
Let us compare:
1 Corinthians 15:42-48 (Young’s Literal Translation)
So also [is] the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body; so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,’ the last Adam for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual not first, but that which natural, afterwards that which [is] spiritual. The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven; as [is] the earthy, such [are] also the earthy; and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] also the heavenly.
Paul doesn’t speak about the body in verse 42-43 and only then starts to talk about the body in verse 44. In Verse 42-43, he is speaking about the resurrection of the dead, in particular the dead raising again. In verse 42, the dead are sown in corruption and raised incorruption. The dead is sown in dishonour, and raised in glory; the dead are sown in weakness, and raised in power. Now verse 44, the dead are sown a natural body, and raised a spiritual body (now Paul talks about the body) there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
It is not the body that has anything to do with why we are corrupted; God knew that we would be corrupted by sin, and gave us a natural body. Why? Because contrary to many, we are mortal, not immortal, this too held a purpose. I am not saying that dying in the natural body will release us from sin because the body is the problem, I am saying that death releases us from sin and the only way that could happen is if we were mortal, in a natural body.
Craig,
It seems that we come to the same conclusion - sin and sinning end at death - once we are resurrected immortal, there is no more sin. 
Todd
Hi John,
Sorry for not responding to your post sooner; I must have overlooked it! 
I agree with you that physical death was in the world before sin entered the world, and that Adam would have died physically even if he had never sinned. Physical dissolution is a natural result of the present organization of our bodies. And I always wondered how those who denied the reality of death in the world before Adam’s sin accounted for the fact that the plants that were created to sustain us (Gen 1:29) would have had to be able to decompose! While I don’t (at present) take a very dogmatic stance in regards to the old earth/theistic evolution vs. young earth/recent creation debate (this is one of the few things on which I tend to go back and forth, and consequently just choose to remain sort of agnostic 
), I agree that, either way, God did not originally create a world in which everything was perfectly organized. There is a certain amount of “disorder” that was built into the very goodness of creation; I see both natural and moral evil as having been inevitable from the start.