Thanks for your reply Aaron. I thought my message might have gotten lost in the disorder sowed into the discussion.
I was hoping we could discuss yours and Todd’s ideas which seem to promote a kind of “instant salvation upon death.” I believe I asked one of you or the other, whether you thought there was still “time and events” with regard to the soul freed from the confines of the body. I never saw that answered. The working of the cross which is a positive experience seems to be lacking with your instantaneous scenario thus I query “time and events?”
Here’s some thoughts that hopefully will help you better understand my view (which may or may not be slightly different than Todd’s):
As far as human nature goes, I hold to a “materialistic” view (which is one area where my worldview intersects with that of the atheist). Unlike God, I believe humans are embodied beings whose life, existence, consciousness (etc.) depends on some sort of material organization, and that, at death, we cease to exist (think of it as a “temporary annihilation”). I don’t hold to a traditional soul/body dualism, and instead see the word “soul” (as it is used in Scripture) as referring to either one’s “self” or “being,” or to some aspect of oneself that is common to other living creatures (such as desires, natural life, etc.). And depending on the context, I see the word “spirit” as referring to that attribute or property that is common to all living creatures and visibly manifested in breathing, and which is represented in Scripture as “departing” from the body and “returning” to God at death (e.g., Eccl 12:7) - or to the thought pattern, mental disposition or state of mind which governs our words and actions (and which, like the “life” of all living creatures, can only be made known by the visible effects it produces - i.e., by how it is manifested in a person’s words and actions). So basically, I don’t see either the soul or the spirit as referring to something that literally continues after one dies in a conscious state of existence.
Now, here’s what I think really distinguishes my view from most on this forum: I believe that one day (what is referred to as the “last day” in John’s Gospel), Jesus is going to return bodily from heaven and will resurrect all who have died (as well as change all who are still alive), and that by this instantaneous change all people will be made both immortal and sinless. What does this have to do with the cross? Well, I understand the cross to be the pledge of this universal subjection to Christ, since it is because of his sacrificial death that God highly exalted Jesus and gave him all authority in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18; Phil 2:8-11; cf. Daniel 7:13-14) - which includes the power and authority to subject all people to himself and thus reconcile all to God (Col 1:20; Phil 3:20-21). So really, I don’t think anyone is instantly saved upon death. Instead, I think everyone will be instantly saved when Christ raises the dead.
Thanks Aaron, I will read and prayerfully contemplate that which you wrote. Maybe I can ask a question or two and share how our passing has been revealed to me.
Wow. We can make the bible say anything we want. You have contradicted many scriptures with your doctrines. The first is Daniel 12:2. Daniel specifically says there will be two resurrections- one for who awake to everlasting life and one to everlasting contempt. Jesus himself tells of two resurrections with different destinations…Resurrection of life and Resurection of judgment, ( John 5:29) You totally contradict Rev 20:10-15. You have taken Daniel 7:13-14 out of context.
Seriously Aaron, this looks like a script for a religious movie and it is not remotely biblical. Where in the world were you taught these views???
You make the statement, “instant salvation upon death.” This is not how I would describe it. There are two aspects of salvation in Christ. The first is salavation in this life where one is delivered from a life encumbered in sin and its consequences unto an abundant life in Christ where one experiences spiritual blessings (love, joy, peace, etc.). This aspect of salvation is only available to those who repent and live faithfully in submission to the Holy Spirit. The second aspect of salvation is from death which Christ will give universally to all mankind. So, death does not save anyone; we are saved from death unto immortality.
Christ died and was raised again to free us from sin; not to just overlook our sin, but to rid us of our sin. In this life He gives us the Holy Spirit to enable us to grow spiritually, repent, and enjoy the blessings of peace with God and man. Ulitmately, death ends sin for everyone.
I (like Aaron) do not believe there is any conscience thought or activity in the grave (Eccl 9:10). Paul says that we are “sleeping” which indicates that at some point we will awaken (be resurrected), both the just and the unjust (Acts 24:15).
Death ends pretty much everything. It’s in the resurrection that things get interesting again.
If the resurrection is merely MoreofMe then death is only a pause, as if we pick up where we left off - then God help us. We will find a way to jack up heaven and call it good. Sadly, that’s actually the paradigm for many people - well, other than admitting to retaining the propensity to screw things up - which they claim the other resurrected guy is capable of - so it ends up not just MoreofMe but MoreofThis.
I don’t believe we just pick up where we left off. Death rids us of our earthly body with all its human frailties. Our new heavenly (Christ-like) body will not have the same propensity to sin. By the time we are resurrected, sin has already been vanquished forever.
Bodies don’t sin - people do. Your argument is approaching that of the Gnostics who argued that the body (and the material in general) is to be transcended because of some essential badness infesting all of creation now. Dualism. God made everything good and some other (and equal) power made it all bad.
Neither Todd nor myself have argued that bodies sin; I think we all agree that it is persons who sin, and that sin is an act of the will. What we’re saying is simply that the desires, inclinations and propensities which, when yielded to, lead to sin, would not be possible without the kind of bodies we possess (and notice that “desires, inclinations and propensities” aren’t material things!). Insofar as the Gnostics understood this relationship between our bodies, desire and sin, I’d say they were approaching the truth of Scripture and human experience. Where I think the Gnostics erred (in regards to human nature) was the overly-simplistic extreme to which they went in ascribing an inherent evil to matter and the human body, and their view that one’s body could be sinning while their “spirit” could remain pure and sinless. But neither of us believe or have argued for this position.
Moreover, I think you agree with us that the mortal body by which we are presently constituted will, in fact, be “transcended” by an “upgraded” immortal body, and that this future state will be very different from our present state. What I would suggest is that the “super-awareness” of which you speak as being our experience as immortals will be made possible by our new body.
Sin is missing the mark and to be free of sin is to become as the Godhead.
Is Heaven the Godhead?
Is being in a resurrected body the Godhead?
What is God All in All, in light of His infinite character?
Can the soul ever sleep and know nothing, when the soul, as in the company of all things is being indwelled and sustained by God, who is omniscient? (Col 1:17)
Sometimes you just have to throw up your hands in praise of God, while you stand in the midst of the unknowing.
O how deep are God’s riches, and wisdom, and knowledge! How unfathomable are his decisions and unexplainable are his ways! Rom 11:33
With that said, I believe our state after death is but a higher realm of our God consciousness and our existence. God is Love and Love by it’s nature must [size=150]ever[/size] hold a tension between Lover and loved. Otherwise Love is dead and oh, what a sad state that would be.
Romans 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Agreed, but don’t you see a connection between our physical bodies and why people sin? Bodies get hungry, thirsty, hot, cold, need shelter, and have sexual desires. There is also, sickness, disease and disabilities. People’s apprearance can have an impact too: fat, thin, tall, short, weak, strong, attractive or ugly can affect someone’s pride or self-worth. People must earn a living to sustain their bodies…food, shelter, clothes…some people have better paying jobs than others. People’s fear of not having enough breeds selfishness, etc. All of these factors and their circumstance can influence a person to sin.
Will any of those sin-motivators be present in our resurrected heavenly bodies?
Revelation 7:15-17 15 Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. 17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
By the same token - should we apply the same connection and same credit to the body as to why people love?
I think the resurrection is about renewal - across the board - which includes our bodies. Blaming sin on our bodies is passing the buck in my opinion. ‘The devil made me do it’ becomes ‘My body made me do it.’ or ‘Hormones made me do it’.
I understand your argument, but…
Sin permeates the PERSON. Christ said that evil springs from the heart - the center of our being - and the body tags along…
Yes! We couldn’t love without our highly complex and organized brains. It is our wonderfully-designed human brain - and the intellectual and emotional capacities it gives us to reason and love - that separates us from the animals.
At the same time, it is that aspect of our nature that doesn’t separate us from the animals which makes us naturally inclined to be self-gratifying instead of inclined to love others as we love ourselves (which, again, we have the capacity for, but it is not instinctive). To overcome our “animal propensities” and lead us away from selfishness requires that God provide us with moral influence and truth (which only beings with the capacity for reason - such as ourselves - can receive).
and your views are completely new to me.