The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Idol Of Self

Practices Christian Living
#1

If you’re like me you have gotten wrapped up in seeking the praise and attention of others. But God has broken this bondage to the idol of self in me by satisfying my heart with His glory. According to the Catholic Fr. Reginald Garrigou - Lagrange, O.P. in His book “Providence” God’s zeal for His glory (Loving Himself above all) isn’t egotistical for God because He is the greatest sovereign good and therefore must love Himself as such. Not to do so would be a sin. Moreover, the more we glorify Him the more our humility increases. In other words God’s zeal for His glory breaks the bondages to selfishness in us. He gives Himself to us in seeking His glory for the purpose of us being satisfied in His glory. Even Jesus gave the glory to God. God’s love of self-giving breaks the bondage to the idol of self to center our affections on God. He is all-powerful and I give Him the glory. I am powerless and depend on Him. God’s grace gives me the ability to enjoy making much of Him. In this way God is kept at the center. Jesus worshipped God therefore I worship God.

Catholic Prayer (Litany of Humility)

That others may be loved more than I, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be esteemed more than I, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That, in the opinion of the world, others may increase and I may decrease, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be chosen and I set aside, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be praised and I unnoticed, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be preferred to me in everything, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

There are ways we are like God and ways we are not. We cannot be like God in every way. Knowing the Creator creature distinctions should produce a measure of humility in us.

God is all-powerful - I am not

God is in control of the universe - I am not

God is self-sufficient - I am not

God is infinite in wisdom - I am not

God is perfect - I am not

God is all knowing - I am not

God in infinitely glorious and beautiful - I am not

I trust and rely on God. His glory is the beauty of His infinite perfections. The more I glorify God like Jesus did the more glorious I become. The glory of the creature is in humility.

#2

http://images.liveluvcreate.com/create/e/edging_god_out-449142.jpg

#3

Humility is the fear of the LORD; its wages are riches and honor and life. - Prov. 22:4

(eternal riches, honor, and life)

#4

Humility is union with Christ where ego is crucified and deflated. We are happy with being nothing and God being everything.

#5

I really don’t see God as very involved in loving Himself. If “God is love” and “God is light and in Him is no darkness at all” I see Him as fountain ever pouring, and His satisfaction, His glory, is in that He Is That He Is. His joy is in the communion of love, like a river always flowing.

He is a pure being and He is bringing us to pure being. That is the work of the cross in our lives, destroying the “double minded man” in us.

Babylon means confusion by mixture, Jerusalem means double peace. We are on a journey from one to another. The Lord is our Shepherd. He will bring us through by restoring our souls even as we walk through the valley of the shadow of death.

When God has had His way in us we love. We love all in our communion of love with Him who loves all. We love with Him who loves because He Is Love, and we are in Him.

The eye is the light of the soul.

Darkness is not just the absence of light, like a night in which one can see the stars. The darkness of self-centeredness is like a black hole. It is always sucking in, yet it remains endlessly empty and never says “enough”. In a black hole, even the light becomes darkness, and Oh, How great is that darkness.

SO yea :slight_smile:, I think God is zealous for His glory, because His glory is to love. His glory is His being Who He Is and all that He does proceeds from that pure fountain.

When He has become All In All…communion will be everywhere, free and spontaneous like a waterfall, deep calling unto deep, the celebration of joy unspeakable and full of glory, a fountain flowing from beneath the throne into a crystal sea feeding a river that makes glad the city of God.

“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11"These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.” Jn 15

“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.” Jn 17

This is what the salvation of our souls is. Saved from double mindedness and the fruit of our affections being suspended between Him and the idol of self. Saved into purity of being, a soul existing only to love and receive love in joyous communion and endless creativity.

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

#6

Yes Jesus gave all the glory to the Father and worshipped the Father. This is God worshipping God or loving Himself above all. Jesus loved God above all therefore I love God above all. If God didn’t love Himself above all then He would commit idolatry. Hence, His zeal for His glory breaks the bondages to the idol of self in us. We love God above all else and our neighbor as ourselves.

#7

God does not love as we love. He has made His love for all evident in a demonstration that makes it clear. His love is to love others more than oneself.

This demonstration is clear in Christ crucified, through which God demonstrated that “the second is like unto the first”- loving ones neighbor is loving God, loving God is loving ones neighbor.

So “God worshiping God” is God pouring Himself out on a cross for mankind. “No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends”

A chicken or the egg scenario perhaps. God loves himself by loving others.

God loving others first is His example, there can be no idolatry in it, because there is no self-centeredness in it.

#8

No, the first thing Christ was doing was glorifying the Father in laying His life down for His friends. Whatever you do do all to the glory of God. Jesus placed The Father first. Not my will but Yours be done. God worships God. The love spills over. We get the grace He gets the glory. God’s love for us keeps God at the center. The only way the bondage to the idol of self is broken in us. The greatest gift of the Gospel = God.

#9

God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.

For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son.

The glory IS the love. He didnt just do it to glorify the Father. He did it also because He loved them, and those two things are one. Glory is not an abstraction apart from the love of God for His creation. He created them in order to love them. He is teaching them to love one another more than themselves so that He can love them fully and they can receive it, among themselves and with and in Him. One big happy family. Joy unspeakable and full of glory.

I don’t mean this to be an argument really, either, just perhaps, a discussion of the chicken and the egg. The way I see love is that it is a state of being- not so personal, mechanical, but more like water, glory, wind, fire. All things that cause effects just being what they are. God loves because He is love. All things are awash in the effect of His love. All things will become aware that to abide in His love is pure joy and the only way the created can appreciate the Creator, or one another.

Jesus was the embodiment of that love.

And He(Jesus) is the radiance of His(the Father) glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete,

#10

Just because the Father and Son are united doesn’t mean Christ didn’t glorify the Father. As Jesus approaches His death He says, " Now is my soul troubled, and what shall I say, “Father glorify Your name” - John 12:27-28. So, the very purpose for which Jesus came to His death was to glorify the Father. His willingness to lose His life is mainly because of His love for the glory of God. When Judas had left the Last Supper and Jesus death was ahead, He said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified and in Him God is glorified” - John 13:31. This is the basic transaction happening in the last part of the suffering of Christ. In the prayer of Jesus in John He views His death as accomplished and says, "I have glorified you [Father] upon the earth, having accomplished the work you gave me to do - John 17:4. So, all Jesus work was designed to honor the infinite worth of God’s glory. The God centeredness of God is the foundation of His grace to sinners. Grace is unmerited favor. It’s not based on our worth. Grace frees us to enjoy making much of God. The idol of self is broken and God becomes the center of our affections. When this happens He exalts us and sings over us. We are forgiven for His names sake:

He created us for His glory:

God is infinitely great and infinite in value and therefore must be loved more than anything. Just as Jesus loved God more than anything. When we do this we find true happiness in union with Him. I trust and rely on God. His glory is the beauty of all His infinite perfections. The more I glorify God like Jesus did the more humble I become.

God is all-powerful - I am not

God is in control of the universe - I am not

God is self-sufficient - I am not

God is infinite in wisdom - I am not

God is perfect in holiness - I am not

God is all knowing - I am not

God in infinitely glorious and beautiful - I am not

There’s a joy in being nothing and God being everything. You don’t want to exchange the glory of God for the glory of created images. Believe me. Been there done that. Nothing is equal to the infinite value and worth of God’s glory. Being satisfied in His glory breaks the bondage to the idol of self and images. I am so grateful for the gift of grace that gives me the eternal riches of God’s glory that my heart is brimming with outgoing love. Enjoy Loving God above all else in union with Him and glorify Him by extending joy in acts of service and charity. This will bring you into closer union. My life is made richer when I love and give attention to others without expecting anything in return. For when I give love without expecting anything in return my reward in heaven is great!

Catholic Prayer (Litany of Humility)

That others may be loved more than I, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be esteemed more than I, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That, in the opinion of the world, others may increase and I may decrease, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be chosen and I set aside, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be praised and I unnoticed, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be preferred to me in everything, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

#11

Interesting how conversations diverge. I never said Jesus didn’t glorify the Father. I said the Father’s love IS His glory and by embodying that love, Jesus glorified God, in loving those whom God had created, even as God does- which is His glory and His divine nature. Jesus showed His love for the Father by loving as the Father loves, and called it obedience, and called it joy, and was glorified by the Father with the glory that was His before the foundation of the world. If you think that love for mankind was not a part of His motivation, then I think it a rather anti-septic view of the Son of Man, but so be it. We differ. What else is new :laughing:

Jesus glorifies the Father’s name by doing as the Father does. “I do whatever I see my Father do”. In sharing the Father’s love for all, Jesus is glorifying, manifesting, the Father’s heart and this brings glory to both.

The Creator is already at the center of everything, and Jesus is in the bosom of the Father. We are as nothing compared to Him, but we are not nothing. We are the object of His affection, the recipients of all His good will, and the subjects of His ever expanding kingdom of joyous fellowship. We are His friends, if we know His business, and His business is reconciliation in love and in humility. We have been brought into the family business because we know Him and serve Him. His glory is to be known As He Is- YHWH, the Supreme, Invisible, Omnipotent, Sovereign God who loves :slight_smile:

Unto which of the angels did He say, Thou art My Son. This Day I have Begotten Thee? Only to the Son of Man.

#12

No it’s not just love. The Bible says God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. His love is a holy love free of sin and pure. Moreover, God is infinitely greater than we are and therefore should be loved more than anything (worshipped). When this happens our joy in complete. We are nothing without God. This is why I affirm people differently now. If someone is intelligent I say "God has really gifted you with intelligence or God has gifted you with wisdom. You are highly gifted with artistic talent. Thank you. But it’s really God who has blessed me with such and such. The glory really belongs to God. Grace and peace to be through Christ our Savior. God really does love and care for you. Praise God! I am blessed. God is really doing a good work through you! He is not merely a friend but my God. He’s not on the same level as a human friend. For His glory is of infinite value and deserves to be at the center of my life. I am happier that way. And it is possible to place other things like money, power, and sex at the center of our lives. This is exchanging the glory of God for created images. This is idolatry. And it’s why God is God centered. The essence of righteousness is to place supreme value on that which is supremely valuable. God’s glory is infinite in value and worth. God beholds His own image in the Son and says, “This is my Son in whom I am well pleased”. God delights in His image more than anything. This is why He’s transforming us into that image. But yes He does love us.

#13

Who said it is “just love”?

He did. “For God so loved the world”. But I agree, it is not “just love” as in how mankind loves here on earth, and yes, it is pure and holy.

But if I give my body to be burned, and understand all mysteries, but have not love, I am just crashing garbage can lids for cymbals- the message never resonates or reconciles unless it is full of love. The gifts of God are given indeed, and we are but the stewards of them, and if we are wise we give the glory to God. If we are wise we also find that Jesus was the holiest man of all, and yet He ate with gluttons and drunkards and prostitutes and tax collectors. There was something accessible in that holiness of His that reached the down and out in a way the Pharisees knew nothing of. Beyond liturgy and beyond practice- it was a connection born of a true desire to befriend people who were cast out by proper holy ones- and it succeeded where religion fails, simply because it was real love.

IMO, we have to beware so glorifying His passion that we miss the backdrop of His everyday life :slight_smile:

But I agree with you in one sense… that it is not just love. it is love and love is glorious. it is love and love brings righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit- the kingdom of God. The new commandment He gave is still new… love one another.

To taste the glory one must drink deeply at the well of God’s love.

For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and** to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
**

20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, 21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen. (Eph 3)

#14

I agree. Within Christ opposites unite and come together. He’s a lion like lamb and a lamb like lion. He is infinitely great yet meets people where they are and is simple enough to talk to children. The glory of Christ is His beautiful outshining radiance of His high holiness. We also see His glory shine in His love and humble lowliness for the outcasts, mentally ill, poor, prostitutes, alcoholics, elderly and the other needy ones the world just loves to hate. In fact it is these that He came for. He came for the sick. Of course, not everyone sees this glory. Different people find different things beautiful and are attracted to different things. But when God opens the eyes of our hearts to see and feel the beautiful compassion and mercy of Christ in it’s wonder of humble holiness we will extremely admire this beauty. The more we admire the paradox of self-giving love the more we will reflect it. We can say it this way: Christ is highly exalted because of His lowly meekness and care for the needy. In fact, He said whatever you do to them you do to Him. Closer union is achieved through charity. For faith without works is dead. This is loving God with all our heart soul and mind

https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13119041_223539524692103_5947999349351750987_n.jpg?oh=2791bd13a489d1447037a96cd6b07286&oe=57A2DAA2

#15

Sounds to me, St.Michael, you are reflecting on the Catholic concept of the Trinity and the love between the 3 persons of the Trinity, perhaps?

If that is your concept of God loving Himself, then I think I understand what you are trying to say. That the love between the 3 persons of the Trinity are a model for us to see what perfect love is, and to do likewise. Am I close?

D.

#16

Yes you are dandelion. The self-giving love within the Trinity of three persons makes God self-sufficient. The Father beholds His own image in the Son and is infinitely happy. “This is my Son in whom I’m well pleased”. This image is first and foremost the humble holy love of Christ. God loves His own image so much that He is transforming us into that very image because He loves us. When we extremely admire and worship the glory of Christ in the Gospel we are transformed into that image. This Beauty is the humble holy love of Christ. Jesus worshiped God therefore I worship God. That is to say, God loves God more than anything therefore I love God more than anything.

#17

Eaglesway,

What we are seeing here is that mercy triumphs over judgment. So, it seems that universalism would be preferred. For it brings God the most glory.

Edit

I’m not sure about that last statement. Let me put it on hold.

#18

After reading through the posts, I have a few questions. Eaglesway, you mentioned that God’s love is to love others more than oneself. Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. I think this love must be equal. If one has no love for himself or anything about himself, then he has nothing to give to others. Also, one would not be able to stand up for himself. You said that loving one’s neighbor is loving God, and loving God is loving one’s neighbor. What about loving oneself? If God is in us and we are in Him, then I would say that loving ourselves is loving God as well. Yes, I think that we can love as God does, for didn’t He show us the way? Giving one’s life for a friend is supposed to be the greatest love of all, and there are many people who do this. Isn’t our love just as pure and holy when we give to others, not expecting anything in return. There is no deceit in this.

St. Michael, yes, we are supremely valuable. This is why God came to earth to show us the way to salvation. I don’t believe we are nothing as you say, for God created us in His image. We are His children, sons and daughters. I think I may have asked you this before in another thread, but in this loving Trinitarian relationship, how does the Father or the Holy Spirit show love for the Son( Jesus)?

#19

LLC,

We are not perfect sons of God like Jesus. Moreover, we are just images. You are exchanging the glory of God for images. Any likeness of Christ in me is derived from Him as a gift. Therefore, He gets the glory for the Christlikeness. Jesus gave God the glory as an example for us. The path to true happiness is having our value rooted in God. I’m happier having someone tell me:

God has blessed you with an amazing gift of serving others. Well done good and faithful servant.

In this way the glory goes to God. Especially when I am thankful to God. I can say:

I thank God for you. You are a blessing.

I am nothing without God. I find humility and happiness in God not self. We were made to make much of God. When I’m standing in front of a great wonder and splendor I say, “Look how wonderful the splendor!” not “Look how wonderful I am!”

#20

St. Michael, No offense, but to me, Balthasar’s view sounds like theoretical word fluff. One does not have to be perfectly perfect in order for God to love us. God is made manifest in all of His creations, including man. I believe we are wonderfully made. Maybe you should notice this about yourself. :slight_smile: