THE MOST IMPORTANT UR ARGUMENT - IMHO


#1

In the first three chapters of Ephesians, (a key book regarding God’s plan for man relative to the fullness of the times) aion is used seven times. And out of those seven, the KJV has chosen five different English words (“ages,” “course,” “end,” “eternal,” and “world.”) to translate this one word.

And to add to this confusion, it translates the Greek word genea (generation), a totally different word, twice as “ages.”

Talk about confusion compounded!

Is it any wonder the church has been blinded from God’s truth about the purpose of His judgments and His eonian plan to save all fallen creatures?!

Simply put, the Scriptures do not take up the philosophical concept of eternity, but rather speak of eons and that which pertains to them. Of course God’s glory exceeds the eons, but His glory is reflected by His Son during the eons as they are presented in Scripture.

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words “aion” and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
tentmaker.org/books/time/

The salvation of first fruits of election, the remnant chosen by grace out of each generation, will be completed after the first resurrection.
The salvation of the non-elect will be completed after the great white throne judgment.
For scriptural evidence that this is so see
godfire.net/eby/allinall.html


#2

The most important argument is not an argument per se, it’s the knowledge and the experience of knowing God.

At the heart of that knowledge is love and forgiveness - one grows in that as a ‘knower.’ We become more like Him as we discover the breathe and depth of His love and forgiveness - there is no end to it!

For illiterate cultures and peoples across time, the Word is the Spirit. Love is universal. Compassion is universal, especially amongst the ‘knowers’, i.e., His messengers.

The pain, suffering, and injustice inflicted by men on men is also universal, but there is a universal knowledge that God is good and Him alone. He has always been man’s hope.

God’s forgiveness must transcend our forgiveness in both quality and quantity or, simply put, He’s not much of a God but, rather, an extension of us. That’s a major flip of roles.

So I can fiddle with Greek words all day long and never be convinced if I did not know Him.

We look at our children and see these beautiful creatures - we correct them, teach them and in the end, forgive them ALWAYS - love is the language, not Greek.

God help the man who reads, “Everyone will be salted with fire.” And see mere words and not the experience known ubiquitously across time and location. i.e. God help the hypocrite - the pretentious ‘unknower’.

In all of this - love is the language, not Greek.


#3

Good points RanRan.
I love this article By J. Preston Eby
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
godfire.net/eby/godislove.html


#4

Rodger,
It might be helpful or prove more potent if you can provide non-universalist commentaries or summaries which come tot he same conclusion. Do you have any?


#5

Yikes Auggy, I don’t understand what you are talking about.
But then I know I’m definitely not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. :confused:
Can you explain what you mean more simply?


#6

I understood you to presenting the links as support for the thesis of your argument. So I asked if you had non-universalist’s who agreed.

Similarly, if you watch a video on how they (Mormons) have found evidence for how Nephi travelled from Isreal to Africa you’ll find that all of the people (professors and acrheologists) are Mormon. So usually people in general are not persuaded by the mormon support for their position.

So concerning the greek word “eons”; are there any that agree?

Aug


#7

If I’m understanding you correctly you are asking me if there are any non-universalists who agree with the meaning of the Greek word aion.

Yes, there is plenty of evidence in Greek secular literature that aion and its adjective aionios was alway used as a period of time of unspecified duration.

AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

There is a Greek word that Young translates eternal and that is “aidios” as in Romans 1:20, “eternal power and Godhead.” It can mean eternal unless it is limited by a qualifying phrase.
See Young’s literal translation of the Bible.

It compares with the Hebrew word qedem in Deut. 33:27 which should read
“The eternal (qedem) God is my refuge, and underneath are the age-during (olam) arms. (see Young’s literal translation)
The Hebrew word olam compares with the Greek word aionios.
Both of them refer to a limited period of time.

The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior’s day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment. Here is the proof

tentmaker.org/books/Doctrine … bution.htm
and
tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
and
hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html

Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of his disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which his contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? He never adopted the language of his day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation.

If Jesus had wanted to convey the idea of “eternal” He would have used aidios, which was understood to mean eternal by Jesus’ contemporaries.


#8

I was referring to Christian sources - not secular. I imagine that most Christians scholars would not agree. Perhaps they would but as you state:

And only one time in scripture does it say God is love; so that’s not good enough. My point being is all it takes is one. I glanced over the links and I’m certainly no expert to know if what the writers are saying is true or not. My feeling is there is such a division on how to translate “eternal” or “ages” that there will be no agreement that Jesus did not mean eternal in a sense of without end. So I wonder how the argument can be so persuasive without there being consensus?


#9

Aug.

Amen. Is it possible for Rodger to make an original thought from himself and not spam Gary Armirault everywhere on this board.


#10

One of the most powerful reasonings for a lack of “consensus” started with the influence of Augustine.

Due to the influence of the reasoning of Augustine the church council voted to make eternal torment an official church doctrine.

But even Augustine himself said, “There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments.”

The argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean “endless punishment,” then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means “endless life,” and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the “eonian chastisement” and “eonian life” are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called “eonian” is past and the life called “eonian” is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: “For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive.” Death is destroyed when ALL have been vivified, or made alive, IN CHRIST. There will then be no more death. Just as life is destroyed by death, so death is destroyed by life. Our present bodies are mortal and corruptible (1 Cor. 15:44-55), but when mankind is made alive IN CHRIST they will be raised immortal and incorruptible.

Believers do receive aionion life. But if this is all that God promised, there would be no assurance of life beyond the eons. However, at the end of the eons God abolishes death from His universe (I Cor. 15:26). This is accomplished by imparting the resurrection life of Christ to all who have not previously received it. Aionion life assures one of life up to that point. Beyond that, death is impossible. Furthermore believers are made immortal when the Lord returns (I Cor. 15:50-57). When one has been made immortal, death is impossible.

To argue that “eternal” punishment must be of unending duration because it is contrasted with “eternal” life (Mt 25:46) misses the point. It fails to recognize that “eternal” life is a quality of relationship with God (Jn. 17:3) and is an end in itself, while “eternal” punishment is God’s corrective discipline and a means to an end. It is the result of the punishment (kolasis aionion) that is “eternal,” not the punishment itself.

Because of the “eonian” nature of God’s revelation, culminating with the consummation of the ages in 1Corinthians 15, we can see that “eonian life” leads into “eternity” at the end of the ages. Therefore there is no real threat to “eternal life,” even though punishment/correction is not eternal, but only for an age.

There are a number of Greek words that imply eternal but aionios is not one of them.
They are usually translated “indestructible,” “imperishable,” “unfading,” “immortality,” and “incorruptible.” Ro. 1:23; 2:7; 1Cor. 9:25; 15:42, 51-54; He. 7:15,16; 1Pe. 1:3,4; 5:4; 1Ti. 1:17; 6:16; 2Ti. 1:10.
Our hope of immortality does not reside in the word aionios, but in God’s very nature (unfailing love and unlimited power) and promises.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

I think each person will decide by depending the bodies of evidence that back up the reasons for their conclusion.

In the case of the believer in UR I think the following does an exhaustive job of documenting why we believe what we do about the true meaning of aion and aionios.

AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

From Rodger, the bob-o-link bird.


#11

It’s probably just as possible as it is for you yourself to come up with an original thought too.
I think you are deluded if you think you have expresed any original thinking on this forum. :exclamation:


#12

Aug,

I think there would be a natural shortage of non-universalists who agree with universalists on the meaning of that word. Anyone convinced of the mistranslation of aion/aionios would have a tendancy to become a universalist (assuming they are Christian). The study of those words was a key factor for me when I was transitioning to universalism.

It might be a better test to see if this evaluation of the word is agreed to by any qualified Greek scholars.

Sonia


#13

Sonia.

Last time I checked…Gary Armirault ain’t no Greek scholar. lol. The useage of the word “Aeonian” sometimes means “everlasting” in the strongest sense of that word, cannot reasonably be doubted. Let the reader judge for himself in every case. ( R.F. Weymouth… biblical and Greek scholar)


#14

This thorough and exhaustive work is by genuine bonifide Greek scholar John Wesley Hanson, not Gary Amirault.
tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

BTW Weymouth himself translated aionious as a limited period of time in every case.
It was the revisors of his translation who changed the meaning.
Dr. R. F. Weymouth, translator of the original “New Testament in Modern Speech” 1903 states, “Eternal, Greek aeonian, i.e., of the ages: Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed does not signify, “during” but “belonging to” the aeons or ages.”

Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment
tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html

For aionios, or any combination thereof, to mean “eternal” its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesn’t. It is impossible for the adjective aionios to mean eternal. Aionios is an adjective. Just as the function of “American” (adj.) is to inform us of that which pertains to America (it is never greater than “America”) thus also the function of “aionios” (adj) is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s). It is never greater than the eons. No aion is eternal. Therefore it is impossible for that which pertains to the eons to be eternal.
tentmaker.org/articles/compa … _aion.html


#15

Rodger.

Your wrong. The truth of the matter is the word ‘aeonian’ can be translated ‘everlasting or eternal’. Weymouth translates 2 Thess 1:9 "They will pay the penalty of ETERNAL destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty…

Btw, this verse alone refutes UR theology and presents a huge problem for the universalist.


#16

I just explained that the revisors of Weymouth changed the meaning.
Weymouth himself did not translate it that way in his original 1903 version.
He translated it age-during.
And I gave the link that proves it.

aion NEVER means everlasting

In the first three chapters of Ephesians, (a key book regarding God’s plan for man relative to the fullness of the times) aion is used seven times. And out of those seven, the KJV has chosen five different English words (“ages,” “course,” “end,” “eternal,” and “world.”) to translate this one word.

And to add to this confusion, it translates the Greek word genea (generation), a totally different word, twice as “ages.”

Talk about confusion compounded!

Is it any wonder the church has been blinded from God’s truth about the purpose of His judgments and His eonian plan to save all fallen creatures?!

Simply put, the Scriptures do not take up the philosophical concept of eternity, but rather speak of eons and that which pertains to them. Of course God’s glory exceeds the eons, but His glory is reflected by His Son during the eons as they are presented in Scripture.

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words “aion” and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
tentmaker.org/books/time/

The salvation of first fruits of election, the remnant chosen by grace out of each generation, will be completed after the first resurrection.
The salvation of the non-elect will be completed after the great white throne judgment.
For scriptural evidence that this is so see
godfire.net/eby/allinall.html


#17

Rodger.

You have your bias UR greek scholars and I have mine, but the truth of matter is the word can be translated everlasting or eternal. To say otherwise is being unreasonable.


#18

And my Greek scholars prove just the opposite in chapters three and twelve.
Readers who take the time to investigate will decide for themselves.

AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

A common argument is that the subject matter changes aion from meaning a long period of time to eternal.
This is simply not true.
There are many places in the Bible where the translation of aion as eternal or everlasting makes no sense at all.
But there are no places in the Bible where the translation of aion as a limited period of time does not make perfect sense.

comparative concordance
tentmaker.org/articles/compa … _aion.html


#19

A37,

The question is, do the Greek scholars’ begin with belief in UR which affects their translation, or does their translation influence their likelyhood to believe in UR?

My point in my post above was that I think it probable that Christian Greek scholar who sees that aion/aionios can be translated other than “without end” would be likely to become a universalist.

This was one of the first things I examined when I was looking into the possibility of UR–is it possible that “aionios” can mean something other than “without end”?

Sonia


#20

That’s a good start Sonia.

But it is an even stronger argument to realize that aionios can only mean everlasting “by accident” as it were, like when it is used in reference to God. As John W. Hanson point out in the following link, it is the subject to which it is applied that incidentally allows for the use of everasting, and NOT any etymological necessity in the word itself.

AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

Of course God is eternal, but that is not what the use of the word aionios is saying about Him.
God is the God of the eons.

• THE EONS HAVE A BEGINNING
Literal Translation versus / King James Version

Heb.1:2 God made the eons / God made the worlds
I Cor. 2:7 before the eons / before the world
2Tim.1:9 before eonian times / before the world began

• THE EONS END, INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY
Heb. 9:26 the end of the eons / the end of the world
1 Cor. 10:11 the ends of the eons / the ends of the world
Matt. 24:3 the end of the eon / the end of the world

• HOW MANY EONS ARE THERE?
Col.1:26 hid from eons Past / hid from ages
Lu. 20:34 this eon Present / this world
Eph. 2:7 eons to come Future / ages to come
A minimum of five eons indicated

• THE PURPOSE OF THE EONS
• Eph.3:8-11 purpose of the eons / eternal purpose
Eph. 1:9-1l; PhiI.2:9-l1; Col.1:l5-21; I Cor. 15:20-28