The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The pain of eternal hell - I'm at my breaking point

Hello, I accidentally found your forum when I was doing Google searches on Universal Reconciliation. I am a Christian. Not sure if I meet the definition of Evangelical but I am a Christian, but lately (and I don’t remember for how long) I have been extremely agonized by the notion of eternal hell that it is ripping away at me, absolutely terrorizing me, and giving me the most psychological torture imaginable. I am starting to feel like I cannot accept the concept of an eternal hell anymore.

It started with the website God’s Plan For All, in which the site claimed that Jesus did not believe or truly teach eternal hell and that the traditional concept of hell in Christianity came from the ancient Greeks and Romans, and the church of Rome later grafted this belief into their Christianity, etc. Colossians 1:15-20 was their starting point and I cannot whatsoever stop thinking about this verse and what the site said about it:

It’s not only that. It brings tears to my eyes to think that God would forcibly snatch away my mom and dad’s love for me forever and ever. They’re getting old, my mom is incapacitated and my dad is simply getting old, but they are not believers, and I know I will be crying very much when they’re gone, because I won’t be able to experience their love on earth anymore; it will be taken away when they die, and it just defies logic to me that God would no longer allow me to ever share that love with them ever again after they die or after I die. It just seems infinitely cruel that God would forcibly sever that love forever and not allow me to ever see my parents again and not allow me to ever reunite with them for eternity down the line, and allow me to keep crying inside and have my heart torn into pieces because God decided that keeping me away from those I love would make me less sorrowful than seeing them in Heaven with me. It seems absolutely IMPOSSIBLE BEYOND WORDS that God would do this to me. IT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE. I JUST CANNOT ACCEPT THIS. SOMETHING ISN’T RIGHT. I hear the platitudes going on right now how God’s justice is beyond what we can understand and everything but that isn’t going to placate my bottomless sadness that I feel from all this. I can’t enjoy anything anymore when I think that something like eternal hell exists. I just can’t. Then there is another notion that God will make us forget that such people existed, when we enter Heaven. So I am just going to forget that I had a mother? Or father? That is just unfathomable to me :frowning:

(I also think it unconscionable to imagine my loved ones being destroyed - annihilated…)
I also don’t know if the notion of hell will ever leave my system either. By the same token, how can Christians be joyful about their faith if they know that someone they love could be going to such a place? For me, it saps the joy ENTIRELY out of my faith. I don’t know what to say anymore…

Ladybird -

I’ve just seen this and I’d like to reply but I have to go out urgently. You are in my thoughts and prayers this afternoon and this evening. And do just hang on in there - there will be some really good and wise people around a little later (Cindy, Jason, Sherman, Sonia, alphabetically, and others).

Peace to you

Dick

Interesting i read that website too, I believe they are saying the truth, look we can’t go out and start alarming people
that come on there is a hell after death, living everyday with stress, so it is not a Good news, it is for three months since I repented (i couldn’t accept that my family is going to hell because they are unbelievers, something was wrong), there are other websites similar to this too: Godsplanforus.com, tentmaker.org and askelm.com, but be careful, do not sin

see my profile what i wrote, my life is like the one i wrote in interests, it is like narrow gate

and see the posts i wrote:

my opinion is different from them on this one:

an objection to Arminianism: what is the real purpose of punishment if we were forgiven almost 2000 years ago and we are righteous in his eyes? of course problem is not the sin but sinfulness, correction with destroying the wicked bad personality (soul) in the lake of fire, and why our parents didn’t kill us when we were child in order to save us from hell if these people are saying that infants are going to heaven?

i think, there is no need for eternal punishment, it is meaningless!

an objection to traditional Churches: if we were forgiven so why Jesus is in Heaven? why he is not in hell or hades (real meaning is grave or sheol) now for our punishment? when he died he was wicked because of our sins, he really was dead those 3 days to bury our sins, he was the last passover lamb, nowhere in the Bible said he got punishment in hell in those 3 days!

Lady Bug -

I know how you feel, and you’re not alone in how you feel.

My mom is an atheist, my sister is an agnostic, and I have a number of other family and friends whose standing with God and eternal fate, according to traditional Christian beliefs, would be questionable.
Even my own standing would be questionable.

In the past, I wrestled deeply with anger and anxiety in thinking of what might happen to me, or to those I cared about, and with the sometimes deeply disturbing and warped picture of God in my mind, that was only reenforced by what I would sometimes read in the Bible, or hear in church or elsewhere.

I lashed out at, cursed at, accused and then pleaded desperately with God; I beat myself up, going so far as to bang my head against walls, claw at myself, tensing my body until I went into involuntary convulsions, while crying out with all my being for an answer and for peace…
I went through many of these dark moments of agony and despair, when no one else was looking, from my late teens up until about three years…

It was a very lonely and overwhelming battle that was going on inside of me through those years.

And I still struggle in some ways to be sure, with old weaknesses and still sometimes with doubt, but the nature and intensity of my struggle has changed. I don’t wrestle with God like I once did. I’m not so afraid, nor does despair threaten to consume me on an almost daily basis.
And I think coming to embrace the hope of universal reconciliation has helped me to find some kind of answer, and some kind of peace, or at least has helped me to keep going and to not give up, and helped me to move in a new direction.

If you’d like to hear more of my story and get a better idea of where I’m at, you can check out this video interview I did with my pastor, Steve Doss, which I just posted today on the forum, here: youtube.com/watch?v=TmfioVS5Hp0

Also, I recently commented on another poster’s thread, the wife of a Baptist pastor, BPW, who has also wrestled with traditional teachings on hell, and the picture of God that goes with it, and here’s what I said to her, which may give you some more idea of my background and how I got to be where I’m at now, and may resonate with you in some way:

It’s been awhile since I’ve been in the kind of dark place that you’re in now, but I can still remember those times, even though I can’t relive them, nor would really want to. But I do remember them.
Many of us here have struggled because of these kinds of teachings about God and about life and death and what comes after… many of us here have wrestled with God and cried hot tears in the middle of the night… but then many of us here have also found a greater hope, and a greater freedom, because our hearts have been opened to the powerful possibility that maybe it really is true, what we’ve longed and ached to believe to be true: that God really does love everyone, and will not give up on, will not abandon, anyone.

I believe there is hope, and that you are not alone.
I believe that God loves you, and he loves your parents, and all the people you care about, and everyone who has ever been and will ever be, and no matter who they are, or what they have done, or where their lives go, or how their lives end.
I believe that His love cannot die, and time cannot kill it, nor even many miles, nor even death. L
I believe love is stronger than death.

Let me share something with you that I shared with BPW, it may encourage you or speak to you in some way:

I hope some of what I’ve shared here helps in some way, sister. I’ll be praying for you and I’m sure many others here will be praying for you too.

Blessings to you and peace

Matt

I asked Muslims they said this: for grave punishment they said after death ALL the people will
go to hades (real meaning sheol that we name it) and just for one night in our time, one day, the person who practices Law will be punished so lightly but the wicked more severe by angels, then after that awaiting resurrection, when i told them the punishment will be for ever or until resurrection, they started to laugh, they said you are making God a great torturer, his purpose was not to create us to torture us,

i found Lamentations 3:31 quite helpful.

Great verse, CL!

For the Lord will not reject us forever. Even if He causes suffering, He will show compassion according to His abundant, faithful love. For He does not enjoy bringing affliction or suffering on mankind. (Lam 3:31-33 HCSB)

Lady Bug,

My heart goes out to you, poor thing! I felt very similar to you, regarding other relatives than my parents, but perhaps even closer ones. I had gone from ECT (eternal conscious torment) to annihilation, but it suddenly one evening occurred to me that this was NOT good enough for God. HOW could He do such a thing to those He taught us to love? To those He claims to love? Doesn’t He love our children more than we do? Our parents and brothers and sisters and friends and even our enemies?

How could Jesus say “Love your enemies so you’ll be like your Father in heaven” if our Father in heaven either hates (Calvinism) or, though He loves, will nevertheless torture forever (Arminianism) His enemies? Is that the kind of “love” Jesus meant? Surely not! Suddenly (though He doesn’t often speak suddenly to me) the Holy Spirit said to my heart, "What if the universalists are right? I was in an agony of wondering. What if they were right? How could that be? But what if there were universalists who believed that God could and would save everyone through Jesus? I am not and I never expect to be a pluralist. All faiths are not the same and Jesus is the door, the true and only way to the Father. Yet what if all eventually go through that door? What if death in this body is not the end?

Honestly I was already persuaded at that moment, but I needed to know why, and that I could verify my new conviction through scripture. I found this site and asked some questions of the good people here, read some books (The Evangelical Universalist, Hope Beyond Hell (free at hopebeyondhell.net/), The Inescapable Love of God, and others) and I’ve found Christian universalism to be true according to accurately translated scripture so far as I can discern truth. I had been asking Father to guide me into all truth – to take away the filters/veils of presupposition through which I saw Him, but I NEVER expected to become a universalist. The best I was hoping for was to mitigate hell and to find some plausible reason to see Him as blameless in condemning people to it. But as usual, our Father is not a little and mean and powerless “deity” but He is MIGHTY to save. It is too small a thing that He save the willing. He will save us all, and He will bring us to willingness and eagerness through His love toward us all – even the least loveable.

I love you already, dear sister, for your compassionate and loving heart

Cindy

Hi Ladybug and Welcome to the EU forum. We’re very glad you found us and look forward to getting to know you. You sound like a very passionate and compassionate person; what a wonderful combination! And I’m so very excited for the things you’ll see as you continue your study of scripture now that you’ve been exposed to the UR perspective. About 3 years ago I came to have faith in Jesus for the salvation of everyone, for Jesus to make all things right, for God to, well, love the hell out of everyone! And I am more convinced everyday of His love for everyone and His sovereignty over everything. And love never fails.

UR has freed me to just love people, to stop judging people, and to stop being negative towards others who believe or live differently than I do. And I see more clearly every day how practically loving God and people is far more important that just what we profess to believe. On the other side of things though, the judgment passages just scare the hell out of me - which is what I think they were suppose to do, to call believers to repentance, to a life of practically loving people, not just in word but in deed.

I’m so very glad that you have such a tremendous love for your parents. And I trust that truly one day Every Knee Shall Bow in worship and Every Tongue Confess that Jesus is Lord! And this certainly includes your parents and mine! Hallelujah. Just go and love the hell out of them! I can’t save anyone, but by God’s grace and the empowering of His Spirit I can sure love them with all that is in me! So be encouraged and filled with faith in God that He will fulfill all that He has said and reconcile all to Himself!

Blessings,
Sherman

Lady {bow!},

Don’t let anyone bully you in regard to justice: justice is the fulfillment of love. If fair-togetherness between persons isn’t the goal, it isn’t justice; and if true love is never accomplished between persons then there is final injustice instead. God, Who is essentially love (and justice), doesn’t stop loving people (even if there has to be some punishment), and won’t be satisfied with final injustice, much less aims at final injustice from the beginning.

There are legitimate big-picture issues where we aren’t omniscient and cannot yet see sometimes how things are going to work out or why things are the way they currently are, but you don’t have to accept people appealing to that in order to paper over a gaping black hole of injustice in their theologies.

Paul in one of his epistles tells his readers not to worry ourselves about our beloved ones, but to trust God to save them from their sins. There would be no point for him to console his readers like that unless we can in fact trust God to save those we love from their sins. Arminians and Calvinists both affirm that trust in important ways, and both undermine and deny that trust where each other affirms it. :angry: Trust God to keep on for everyone until He brings us all to righteousness, however long it takes, and keep an eye out for ways to help with that yourself. :slight_smile:

(I find it more difficult to believe God will save those I hate from their sins! :wink: But then I’m the one being the ungracious sinner.)

I have to go out today so I cannot address everyone individually, but I wanted to thank you for your replies. I struggle with the dichotomy of everything I felt when I wrote that post, and seeing the Bible passages which indicate damnation or destruction of the unbelievers. Passages of reconciliation (e.g. Colossians 1:15-20 and the passage about “all shall be made alive” and “the savior of all men, especially of those who believe”) cannot be reconciled with the notion of most people being thrown into an eternal hell without the possibility of getting out. :frowning: I’m not very good at apologetics on this. I could be given verses by someone to support the eternal hell or annihilationist view and I may not know what to say. I do know that from what I read on God’s Plan For All, that certain words in the Bible have been mistranslated to mean hell when it does not actually translate that way. So that’s something to ponder about.

Anyone know of any hard-copy books that could be of use on this? What about the one by Heath Bradley, Flames of Love?

I’m sorry if I was operating too much on emotion last night and not on Scripture, but how can this subject not be emotional?

I am going to my weekly individualized Bible study with someone and we are getting closer to the subject of annihilation because we are talking about the End Times and she is an annihilationist, and I don’t think I’m going to be comfortable talking about this with her and I don’t know what to do…I keep trying to tell myself to deal with it but…I don’t know how any of these people can utter these beliefs with a straight face…especially to those who have loved ones that they don’t want eternally tormented or destroyed…it’s weird…

Jason, what’s the reference for that verse? i’d be curious to check it out.

Lady Bug,

Jesus said, “Judge for yourselves what is right.”

Joshua said, “Choose this day whom you will serve.”

Abraham said. “Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?”

If the God you’ve been taught all your life is a monster in your eyes, then walk away. Be bold. Get angry. Stand up, turn round, and leave this God behind. Look for a better God, One worth loving, One worthy of your praise and worship. How can you love a God you secretly find repulsive?

In Christ I find a God who would rather die himself than lose even one of us. “If I am lifted up, I will draw all people to me.” And it wasn’t all talk, no action. When the whole cosmos has been restored, when every wrong has been put right, when the whole human family stands in glory before God’s throne, then we’ll have good reason for singing.

Hi Lady Bug,

I’m glad you found us!

If we don’t understand God’s “justice” it is because we think justice means revenge. But God’s justice is primarily about reconciliation and bringing about peace and right relationships between people. That means the bad guys – that’s all of us in our own ways – learn that they have been bad and are made to be sorry and are given the ability to make it up to those they have wronged. And it means that those who are wronged learn to forgive their enemies, as they have been forgiven, and love them.

That’s God’s holiness and justice. People speak as if love and justice are opposed to each other saying, “Well, sure, God is love, but He’s also Just.” Justice is not the opposite of His love, it is His love.

I completely relate to this. I was depressed most of my life, until I learned about UR. I didn’t know why I was depressed, but the depression went away after I became convinced of UR. I guess it was the hopelessness of my view of reality that was hurting me. A God who has the power to save everyone and chooses not to do it is not one that inspires me to trust and hope and rejoice.

It is good to be able to believe that God is genuinely and truly good, that He loves all His creation – every individual – far more than we are able to, and that His desire is to bring all things into unity in Christ.

Eph 1:10 … making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Blessings to you,
Sonia

There’s a lot of good hard copy books that you can order on Amazon, though they vary in price range.

Here’s some of the best ones I know of and have read:

The Evangelical Universalist by Gregory MacDonald (aka Robin Parry)

The Inescapable Love Of God by Thomas Talbott

The One Purpose Of God by Jan Bonda

Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin

Raising Hell by Julie Ferwerda

Restitution Of All Things by Andrew Jukes

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

There are a number of others, some of which I’ve read and many that I haven’t, but those are some of the best ones, at least that I know of.

Just as with those who believe in eternal conscious torment and in annihilation, there are countless ways that people look at it, many theories on what it’s like and how it works, but then every universalist of every variety at the very least agrees that everyone will be alright in the end, one way or another, which is a beautiful hope to hold to, however you may look at it.

If you browse around this forum and on other universalist sites online, you can see how much diversity there is.

There are liberal universalists and there are conservative universalists, and everyone in between, there are universalists who support their belief through scripture, and others through experience, or a combination thereof, etc.

So even though this is still a minority view in some ways (though I think there are far more people who believe something along the lines of UR in their hearts, but just don’t talk about it, than some might think), it’s a broad spectrum, with a lot of variety and ways of looking at it, though one area that I think everyone can agree on is the importance of love, even if, like anyone else, we all are yet learning and growing in love, and are all works in progress.
But I believe God will complete His work in us and in everyone, all in due time. :slight_smile:

There’s no shame in that, Lady Bug. I admit I go more by my gut than by the Bible, and I go by my experience more than by systematic reasoning. Of course that’s just me. I’m a bit of an oddball here.

I think the Bible is important and has value, but then to be honest I’m not overly fond of much of it and have some reservations about it in general.
But, then again, I do believe that one could strongly defend a belief in universal reconciliation just from scripture alone, as I’ve seen in books I’ve read, and here on this forum and elsewhere.
And UR is far more logical and reasonable to me than eternal conscious torment or annihilation.

I longed and ached to believe in something like UR for years, but didn’t think I was allowed to, and didn’t think there was enough support for it. But when I started reading up on it a couple years ago, my head started to catch up with my heart.

I think that’s what you need now. In your heart you already believe it’s true, or want it to be true, but you need to know there’s more support for it, that it’s a hope that stands on solid ground and is defensible.

I think you’ll find that support, as you read and study more, as you can continue to search for answers.

Of course, not every question can be answered. Personally, I don’t think every single Bible verse can be totally explained in light of this, namely because I don’t believe the Bible is inerrant, even if I do believe that it is, or at least much of it is, inspired.
But I digress. And there are other questions that we just don’t know all the answers to, like why is there suffering and evil, and what exactly happens to us when we die, etc.

And this is the nature of faith and trust. There may be evidence and support to back up our hopes and convictions, but ultimately, at least in some ways, it’s a shot in the dark.

And there is always room for doubt. But that’s okay.
I don’t think God expects us to be 100% sure of everything, even of Him, 100% of the time.
I think God knows us far better than we know ourselves, and knows how difficult it can be for us sometimes, to believe when we can’t see, to trust when we don’t understand.

I believe God is patient with us, tender with us, in our struggle to believe and to trust.
I’ve come to believe this from my own experience.

Keep going, sister. I believe you’ll find the answers and the peace that you’re looking for in time.
I believe all of us will. And don’t ever be ashamed of feeling strongly about the fate of others, of wanting good things for others. That shows that you have compassion and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
In fact, I think such passion and compassion is God’s Spirit at work within you, if you ask me. :slight_smile:

I had a co-worker for a little while who was a Jehovah’s Witness, who believe in something like annihilation.
We got along okay, and we were at least on the same page about the craziness of eternal damnation. :wink:

It’s up to you, but I wonder if it might be better to hold off on talking with your friend about this until you’re a little more settled about it.
When I first started looking into UR, I didn’t talk to hardly anyone about it, and avoided talking with those whom I knew would most likely disagree with it, until I was a little more settled about it.

Julie Ferwerda, the author of Raising Hell, whom I friended on Facebook, advised me to do that when I first started looking into it, and I think it was good advice. :slight_smile:

And I agree, it’s crazy. But when something has been taught for hundreds of years and has been believed by millions, and is considered the ‘orthodox’ view, it’s hard to question it, to just drop it and believe something different.

There are a lot of reasons why people may believe ugly or terrible things, whether it be fear or pride or something else.
It varies from person to person.

And I think it takes a lot more courage to believe in something beautiful than it does to believe in something ugly, to believe in something wonderful than it does to believe in something terrible, and such courage isn’t always an easy thing to come by.
Personally, I think that kind of courage is a gift from God.
And I believe He’s given you that gift… it’s just in the process of opening up inside of you. :slight_smile:

Matt

CL, that’s in 1 Cor 7:12-17.

Lady,

there are several fine books on the scriptural case for Christian universalism, although personally I find Elhanan Winchester’s work (during the time of the American Revolution) to be pound for pound the most useful.

amazon.com/universal-restora … 1171459823
The print version linked above is from a pdf scan system that I know from experience works well – it photo-reproduces the pages of the actual text rather than trying to scan the words into a new file (which for old English texts can easily result in nonsense). I’ll attach a free version below, too, as a pdf file.
1788 Winchester The Universal Restoration (1831 edition).pdf (12.4 MB)

amazon.com/Scripture-univers … 1170774245
I haven’t read this one yet, and ran across it while looking for the Amazon link to the book above; it’s less expensive than the other, and on the strength of his other work I’ve just bought it (apparently it has only recently been returned to print by this electronic publisher), but I can’t directly recommend it until maybe Friday this week after I’ve had a chance to look over it.

thank you, Jason. it seems to exempt brothers and sisters, and allows for divorce leading to loss of that salvation, annoyingly, at least in that passage, or else that may’ve been a pretty good clobber text for our side :laughing:

  1. If you think that something is completely wrong you may be right.

  2. I have a defence against people who think that God’s justice is beyond understanding. I regularly meet people who say similar things about computers, which have been my whole life for over 40 years. These people are usually wrong about computers, I mean seriously, badly wrong. Wrong as a bucket of wrong things on international wrongness day. These are the people who give out advice which is so bad that I weep. Similarly thinking that God just does nasty things for no good reason and we not only can’t understand but shouldn’t be allowed to try is simple mental laziness. Unfortunately you can’t force someone to think at gunpoint.

You are right, they are wrong, welcome to reality.

True!–but the basic concept is, if you truly love someone, don’t worry, it’s ultimately God Who saves them (although we’re expected to help, including as a believing spouse), and He loves them at least for your sake.

If they leave you, though, they’re setting up to be zorched. :wink: