The Evangelical Universalist Forum

This evangelical church seems to be open to universalism

Evangelical Universalism
#1

gci.org/

The name of the church is Grace Communion International. It used to be the Worldwide Church of God and was led by Herbert W. Armstrong, but when he went along home the denomination changed and is now a member of the National Association of Evangelicals. Anyway their statement of faith doesn’t mention hell (or judgment) at all:

I think they still technically believe in hell, but they believe that people aren’t judged until the resurrection and that between death and the resurrection most people will turn to God. Watch “Is God a Butterfingers” or “Eternal Punishment” on their web site to get some idea about what they believe.

#2

I think they are, as they have favourably interviewed Robin Parry on at least 3 occasions:
gci.org/YI083
gci.org/YI082
gci.org/yi/parry81
:sunglasses:

I suspect they’re being cautious to avoid getting treated like Bell :neutral_face:

Awesome, I found they have a Church only 30 minutes away from me!!!

hobart.gci.org.au/

, they"]We have congregations around the globe - 42,000 members in almost 1000 congregations"Like"

#3

I don’t think they’re that cautious

#4

Hi Alex
Interested in hearing of your encounter with the Grace Communion International, formerly World Wide Church of God.
A couple of years ago I read a book describing there crisis of faith after the death of Armstrong and their remarkable transition from a works oriented Old Covenant thinking church to the Grace Community. I think the denomination virtually split in two with a good number remaining with the old belief system’ still.

I was quite interested because I think Armstrong was originally Seventh-Day Adventist and many of the core beliefs were the same or similar but in many regards stricter and altogether more cultish though it was interesting to read of some of the cultural similarities. I tried to find the book but didn’t turn it up.I grew up in the SDA tradition and mix with many but no longer hold their distinctive beliefs. As SDA’s are anhilationists I wonder if this belief was carried over to WCG.

I will be interested to hear if you join the Grace Communion near you; it sounds like they have been extremely open in their changes and led to a total turn around. Miraculous you could say.

Cheers S

#5

Yep, that was a fine article!

The only thing it was missing was the affirmation that the Spirit (and the Bride) keep on going after the ones in the holes at the end.

i.e., strictly speaking this might not be anything more than Lewis’ near-universalistic Arminianism. (They don’t come out and say God gives up on those in their self-dug holes eventually, but neither do they affirm He doesn’t give up–although the logic of their presentation would weigh in favor of God never giving up!)

#6

Perhaps their understanding comes from the very fact they realized their beliefs in the past were off the mark. Perhaps they realized their own ancestors would be in terrible shape if God gave up on people at the time of death based on not having gotten it right in this life. Admitting you were wrong can be a very humbling experience.

#7

I found this on their website that further clears what they may believe

Hell is the separation and alienation from God chosen by incorrigible sinners. In the New Testament, hell is referred to by the terms “lake of fire,” “darkness,” and Gehenna (a gorge outside Jerusalem where garbage was burned). Hell is characterized by punishment, torment, anguish, weeping and gnashing of teeth, and eternal destruction. The biblical terms Sheol and Hades, often translated “hell” or “the grave,” refer to the realm of the dead. The Bible teaches that unrepentant sinners will suffer the second death in the lake of fire, but it does not make absolutely clear whether this means annihilation or conscious spiritual alienation from God.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 | Matthew 10:28 | Revelation 20:14-15 | Matthew 13:42 | Psalm 49:14-15

#8

I get the feeling reading through their web site they really don’t believe anyone necessarily will wind up in hell even though it is possible. They seem to believe it unlikely that God will fail in his efforts to save us.

#9

“Like”

Some people are telling me the group is still a cult even though it seems to have thrown out its old doctrines. It would be interesting to hear your impressions if you actually attend their services. I am hearing they have only changed their views for public consumption, but still are a high control group.

#10

We have several in our area too, one only 8 minutes away! The statement of faith says they believe in judgement for everyone with condemnation or rewards and eternal life. They have a more interactive style too on Sunday where they get together and, instead of just listening to a sermon, participate in a study. It sounds like a good fit for us.

#11

I know WCG was very cultish and that makes me wonder how much baggage GCI retains from it’s roots … If anyone checks it out, I’d love to hear what you think!

Sonia

#12

I agree.

#13

Here are the transcripts of the sermons on website of the one near me:

]Theodicy: The Problem of Evil – Habakkuk (God & Evil 1)/]

]Good Friday: Lord’s Supper/Footwashing; (God & Evil 2)/]

]Easter Sunday: Victory Over Evil (God & Evil 3)/]

]Raised to New Life – Overcoming Evil with Good (God & Evil 4)/]

]God’s Restoring Justice (God & Evil 5)/]

]Hell and Final Judgment – Weeding out Evil (God & Evil 6)/]

]The Jesus Creed 1 – Love God, Love Neighbour/]

]Towards a Theology of Scripture/]

Reading the Hell & Final Judgment one, makes me think they are like Bell, hopeful universalists :slight_smile:

They also do seem quite structured, like Anglicans, which has pros & cons…

#14

I checked the GCI website and immediately found this video: “Calvinism and Legalism - by Elmer Colyer” at gci.org/OQT-ec7. Wow. He hits the nail on the head concerning some of the difficulties ECT raises. In a nutshell, Calvinism is supposed to bring consolation and assurance to weary souls but ends up bringing fear and legalism through the back door. As a Calvinist for many years, I always felt this was lurking around in the shadows but I tried to ignore it.

The video continues here:
“Double Predestination - by Elmer Colyer” at gci.org/OQT-ec5

and this one fits in there somewhere:
“The Value of Hell - by Elmer Colyer” at gci.org/OQT-ec6

#15

Cultish sounds bad so thank for the heads up. Although, I have been called heretic quite a bit so maybe I’d fit right in? :smiley:

#16

LOL I guess it depends on how they are now. Cults tend to be very controlling … and I guess a lot of non-cult churches probably are too! And “heretics” tend to be more independent thinking types…

If you check it out, let us know what it’s like. I’m curious!

Sonia

#17

I found some time to listen to the first of those yesterday, and I have to say I really appreciate Robin’s attitude. His humility is a wonderful example.

Sonia

#18

I totally agree! :sunglasses:

#19

Hi;

I am Phil, a long time member (40 years) of what was Worldwide Church of God, now Grace Communion International. I pastor three small congregations in Tasmania.

It was great to be introduced to this forum through Alex. I had only just put up our local website when Alex found it. I have only recently spoken on the topic of judgment, evil, hell etc. locally, and gave a talk on it at our national Pastor’s Conference in August.

Where to begin… perhaps our Statement of Beliefs referred to already in this thread…
gci.org/aboutus/beliefs#Judgment

Secondly, the article; The Gospel Really is Good News, also referred to earlier; gci.org/gospel/reallyis

Are we a cult? How loudly and convincingly can I say no to that! But we were. It has been a long and winding road, but an amazing one, that testifies to the fact that God does pursue even the most stubborn.

It is disappointing when some continue to claim we haven’t really changed… perhaps they haven’t really looked. We don’t claim perfection. We were exclusivistic, judgmental, controlled, dogmatic and heretical, but most members had a strong faith in God, in Jesus and Scripture, and prayed, studied, and practiced their beliefs with great conviction. God in his grace and providence, used what we had, and who we were, our circumstances to transform us.

What is written on our websites hopefully reveals who God has transformed us to be now.

Herbert Armstrong started off as a Methodist, but became part of the Seventh Day Church of God (never and SDA). You can see the influence of the Millerite movement in him and so many of that time in the focus on prophecy. He was an advertising man, and that led him to differentiate his teachings from others. Through a radio program in Eugene Oregon, which was in competition another religious program, he became more and more narrow and dogmatic. He broke from the Church of God Seventh Day, and formed the Radio Church of God, which then became Worldwide CoG, and now GCI>

Today our President is Joseph Tkach, who is on the board of the US National Association of Evangelicals, ncls.org.au/default.aspx?sitemapid=6305

Although we are still technically a hierarchical organisation, we have national boards and pastoral teams, local councils etc. Theologically we are continuing to learn and grow. We have an international theological committee which oversees our Statement of Beliefs. But as you can see from that Statement, it is quite open. And members don’t have to agree to everything in it, though pastors etc. are expected to not oppose it.

My congregations meet on Sunday, though some still meet on Saturdays. Local worship practices, activities, priorities etc. are locally self determined but there is a commonly held core theology. If anyone wishes to check us out, I think you will find we are no longer what we were.

I can deal with more aspects of our theology in another post or thread, but basically we are solidly Trinitarian, with a strong inclination to the theology of Karl Barth and Thomas F. Torrance and his brother James.

I would see myself fairly much in line with Barth on matters of salvation, divine perseverance etc. Hopeful, but not certain. What I hold as certain is that God is love. He uses his sovereignty, almighty power etc. in love. I strongly disagree with the classic Calvinist position that God is first of all sovereign, and that love somehow is subservient to that. God has shown himself to do wildly unexpected and unreasonable things in order to bring his people to himself… I don’t expect him to stop, or somehow allow death to be like the buffer at the end of a railway line, or the end of the story, in his pursuance of his beloved. Rom 8:38-39.

Blessings!
Phil

gci.org
hobart.gci.org.au/

#20

Welcome Phil! Thank you for an excellent first post. I’m delighted to hear that God has been persistent in pursuing the WCG/GCI church and that you have hope for the salvation of all :slight_smile: