The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Universalist Anglican Minister: Contradiction?

This is a spin-off from another thread.

I’m seriously considering starting the long process of becoming a Church of England priest (possibly chaplain or Fresh Expressions pioneer), which given that I’m not even an Anglican at present is a long term plan :slight_smile: The reason is that the CofE clearly have many universalist clergy amongst them, and I can’t see any other (traditional or established) denomination that would accept my theological viewpoints.

However, it seems that the Declaration of Assent that ordinands have to make signs one up (publicly) to belief in the Athanasian Creed, which is clearly ECT. How this works with universalist clergy I don’t know, and have e-mailed the CofE about this specific issue (will let you know if I get a reply).

What do people think: Can a universalist be an Anglican Priest in good conscience, or are universliast anglican clergy dissembling or going against their vow (and as some think, should resign)?

I’d think plenty probably signed up as “ect” proponents and so duly made their confession, then over time discovering where reality hits the road in dealing with people and also again given time in studying the scriptures that these things most likely enabled them to come to more inclusive conclusions they presently hold.

You’re probably right, davo. But should such clergy resign (or should they be reprimanded?). and is it acceptable to have a state of affairs where it’s acceptable to become a universalist, but not to start out as one?

There are universalist Anglican clergy on the forum. I’d recommend a chat with the RevDrew. A great minister in Spain right now.

As far as the Athanasian Creed goes, I think you can hold to universalism without too much discomfort. It says those who do not keep the faith whole and undefiled perish everlastingly. Well we know even from scripture that only Christ can keep anything whole and undefiled. So I can view this segment as a statement of what no man is capable of doing without God’s help. Thus emphasising how vital faith in Christ is and how our own actions don’t ultimately save us. I’d even say that without this view, the Athanasian Creed can sound a little like works salvation.

" they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; they that have done evil into everlasting fire" Similar to the parable of the sheep and the goats. It can sound as though our own goodness saves us. Yet we know from the rest of scripture that this is not true. So I would view this section as either a quote of the biblical passage, which I believe teaches pruning in Gehenna for unrepentant wicked. Or I would see the two man theory at work: we put off the dead, old, flesh man into the fire and live everlastingly as the new, resurrected man. Saul is dead forever. Paul is the new man.

Pog - do you have the wording of this ‘declaration of assent’ regarding the Athanasian Creed? - is this different from the Article of faiht in the BoCP that deals with the Creeds? (the wording could be important)

Good point: should have put the wording up :slight_smile:

From the CofE official website, Canons 7th ed. C15 Declaration of Assent:

1(1) The Declaration of Assent to be made under this Canon shall be in the form set out below:

PREFACE

The Church of England is part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church worshipping the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It professes the faith uniquely revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds, which faith the Church is called upon to proclaim afresh in each generation. Led by the Holy Spirit, it has borne witness to Christian truth in its historic formularies, the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, The Book of Common Prayer and the Ordering of Bishops, Priests and Deacons. In the declaration you are about to make will you affirm your loyalty to this inheritance of faith as your inspiration and guidance under God in bringing the grace and truth of Christ to this generation and making him known to those in your care?

Declaration of Assent

I, A B, do so affirm, and accordingly declare my belief in the faith which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds and to which the historic formularies of the Church of England bear witness; and in public prayer and administration of the sacraments, I will use only the forms of service which are authorized or allowed by Canon.

(2) The preface which precedes the Declaration of Assent in the form set out above (with in each case such adaptations as are appropriate) shall be spoken by the archbishop or bishop or commissary in whose presence the Declaration is to be made in accordance with the following provisions of this paragraph and shall be spoken by him before the making of the Declaration.

(3) Every person who is to be consecrated bishop or suffragan bishop shall on the occasion of his consecration publicly and openly make the Declaration of Assent in the presence of the archbishop by whom he is to be consecrated and of the congregation there assembled.

(4) Every person who is to be ordained priest or deacon shall before ordination make the Declaration of Assent in the presence of the archbishop or bishop by whom he is to be ordained.

See: churchofengland.org/about-us/structure/churchlawlegis/canons/section-c.aspx

Okay, it doesn’t mention the AthCreed specifically, so…

1.) Is the so-called AthCreed even one of the Catholic Creeds? It was formulated for direct competition with the Eastern Orthodox, which was also no doubt why the wrapping statements were included that stressed if someone doesn’t believe everything in the two lungs of the Creed (so to speak) they’re hopelessly lost, and to obtain salvation one must believe those doctrines. Which is the heresy of gnosticism anyway; but of course the stress on being hopelessly lost would directly oppose EOx license on the topic of Christian universalism.

Doesn’t a “catholic” (little c) creed have to be one the pre-schism church agreed on?! The two lungs of the AthCreed are based on the Chalcedonian clarifications of the Nicean, which aside from the filioque (the Spirit proceeding from the Son as well as the Father) the Eastern Catholics also agree on. If the Chalcedonian-Nicean Creed is what is intended, then that never said anything specific about what judgment or eonian punishment meant. (Unlike the wrapping statements of the AthCreed.)

2.) Assuming the AthCreed is supposed to count as a “catholic” creed, the structure of its presentation can be argued to exclude the wrapping statements which are about the catholic faith statement in the two lungs of the creed. We’re expected to “credo” the two natures of Christ and the filioque; we aren’t expected to “credo” that we obatain our salvation by “credo”-ing the two natures of Christ and the filioque!–i.e. we aren’t expected to declare that we believe we are saved by believing rightly. Similarly the other main part of those wrapping statements, about being hopelessly lost, isn’t structurally part of the catholic faith statement itself.

So unless someone expects me to teach salvation by right knowledge, which is gnosticism, I could hold to a pledge to teach the catholic faith contained in the AthCreed, along with (so to speak) Katholic salvation.

In fact, I do just that already anyway. :slight_smile:

I should clarify that if the vow was to teach hopeless punishment of one or another sort, in an explicit fashion, I wouldn’t take the vow, or having taken the vow and having come to believe otherwise I would in fact resign my post (perhaps serving as a deacon in some fashion but not in teaching or preaching).

Its’s true that the declaration doesn’t mention the Athanasian creed (or any others for that matter) by title, but that it is implied (along with the Apostle’s Creed and Nicene Creed) is evident from the optional use of the creed in Common Worship, and it’s use in the BCP. At least, that is how it seems to me at the moment …

Interesting Update: I recieved a reply to my query from the National Adviser for Vocations & Selection Secretary, Ministry Division, The Archbishops’ Council. It told me to ask my local vicar or check the local diocesan website! :slight_smile: I have sent a reply. I’m not sure that the CofE will give me a clear answer, which really is an answer in itself.

Hi Pog :slight_smile:

Ok I know we’ve had some private correspondence about this – but I thought I’d restate the historical arguments to supplement Jason’s theological overview – which I completely agree with by the way.

The damnatory clauses in the Athanasian Creed are in fact curses against heretics who teach differently from what the Creed sates about the Trinity and the Incarnation – rather than affirmations of belief in eternal damnation as such – indeed the historical evidence suggest that the curses are directed at specific groups of heretics – Arians, Sabbellians, Nestorians and Eutychianists (funky name ‘Eutychianist’ eh?!!!). There are no curses against heretics in the apostle’s Creed, but there are curse against heretics in the long version of the Nicene Creed – which is later than the short version and so carries no authority. I know that Philip Schaff the Church historian saw the creeping of curses against heretics into doctrinal statements in the Early Church (as opposed to milder statements of threats of excommunication that could be lifted) as evidence of the decline of charity in the church – although Schaff the Calvinist universalist was also in favour of keeping the Athanasian creed for its doctrinal importance.

However, it is true that in the past when open discussion of universalism has reared its head in the C of E the Athanasian Creed has been used by traditionalists as a stick to beat hopeful and certain universalists – in the absence of Cramner’s 42nd article condemning the teaching of Universal Restoration that was never restored to the Prayer book under Elizabeth. And conservative evangelicals and conservative High Church Anglicans sometimes make the same noises today. However, although there are issues that may create schism in the worldwide Anglican Communion this is not going to be one of them I think – and I don’t think that you are being asked to assert your belief in eternal damnation in the affirmation you cite. You are being asked to affirm your belief in Trinitarian Christianity ‘the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit’…’ uniquely revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds’.

I think also you are being provided with genuine wriggle room here with the term ‘catholic creeds’ – as Jason suggests the Athanasian Creed is a historic and concise statement of Chalcedonian orthodoxy – with a few additions, one of which has proved divisive – but it is not a catholic creed of the universal Church. The Anglican Church is no enemy to scholarship and Anglican scholars know that the Athanasian Creed does not have the status of the two truly Catholic Creeds because –

This Creed was actually never originally called a creed and did not have Athanasius name appended to it.

It was originally written in Latin, while Athanasius composed in Greek.

Neither Athanasius nor his contemporaries ever mention the Creed.

It is not mentioned in any records of the ecumenical councils (so it is not truly a Catholic creed)

It addresses theological concerns that developed after Athanasius died (including the filioque).

It was most likely written in Sothern Gaul a hundred years after the death of Athanasius

And importantly it has been a source of contention and division in the Universal church. I have little understanding of why the filioque clause is so important as a distinction (this is the affirmation of double procession – that the spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son). However i know that the Church in the east does not agree - for the majority of them the Spirit can only be said to proceed from the Father. Historically it seems that one of the reasons for grievance is that at the time of the great schism the Church of Rome tried to impose the filioque on the Eastern Christians using a creedal statement that lacked the authority of the ecumenical Councils and added damnation to anathema.

Oh I’ll grant you that the Church of England and the wider Anglican Church is one big fudge – it’s never crystal clear in its formularies; these are always there to ensure that people can stay together in difficult togetherness rather than split apart in the acrimony of doctrinal clarity. But then I think that unless universalists split apart from the universal Church and start their own denominations – which I would not advocate, because one schism leads to another and then to another – universalists have to live with begin part of historical Christianity – and the Anglican Church gives plenty of breathing room for universalists.

As well as the wriggle room provided by the ‘catholic’ in ‘catholic creed’ in the affirmation, I also note the particularly Anglican emphasis that the Church is called upon to proclaim the faith ‘afresh in each generation’ – while the faith does not change, its expression in each generation does as Christ the Logos lead us into fresh understanding. This is implicitly allowing you to take an historical view of the faith.

When the article of faith in the BOCP affirmed all three creeds as expressing the explicit teaching of holy write the ‘Johannine comma’ was still thought to be authentic. This is the interpolation into the first epistle of John that affirms that the Father, Son and Holy spirit are a unity of substance. During the sixteenth century scholars proved this ‘comma’ does not exist in any early Greek manuscripts of the NT and that it is actually an interpolation in to the text from an annotation in a Latin version – but the Articles of Faith in the BOCP know nothing of this. Trinitarian Christians today have to argue for their beliefs on different grounds – that the developed doctrine of the Trinity is implicit in the NT but is actually the work of the Early Church – developed over several centuries

Again, Anglican scholars have known since the late sixteenth century that the Creed is not by Athanasius and actually does not represent the views of the universal church of East and West – and the conclusive evidence for this came in the seventeenth century from the Dutch Scholar G.J. Voss who was later in minor orders in the C of E.

In the English Civil War – when the problems of religious tolerance and pluralism surfaced – leading Anglicans (Jeremy Taylor, Richard Chillingworth etc) have called for the damnatory clauses to be dropped because they stir up offences against charity and living in peace with fellow Christians with doctrinal difference to us. Even the Calvinist Richard Baxter suggested they should be removed. Indeed, it is remembered that the Athanasian Creed was used as the pretext to burn Anabaptists as blasphemers – for their supposed heretical view on Incarnation – even after the heresy laws had been repealed.

The Episcopalian Church dropped the Creed in 1801. The Episcopalian Church wasthe first independent province of the Anglican Communion, Before the War of Independence America was part of the Diocese of London!!! The jettisoning of the Athanasian Creed was part and parcel of a rejection of authoritarianism – which the English Bishops went along with because the conservatives in the Episcopal Church who wanted to keep it seemed like they might align themselves with the Anglican supporters of the Stuart dynasty that had been thrown out of England but still perhaps could cause big trouble.

And there have been various commissions in the C of E about dropping it, or at least dropping the damnatory clauses – in the 19th and 20th centuries. Conservatives’ in the church – both Evangelicals and High Churchmen - have blocked explicit reform. Indeed a coalition of these two wings of the Church used the damnatory clauses to bring a clergyman who had expressed cautious Universalist sympathies in print in ‘Essays and Reviews’ in 1861 to trial. He was convicted but his conviction was quashed by the Privy Council. The Athanasian Creed was also used against Colenso, the Anglican Bishop of Natal – who was tired for heresy for rejecting the doctrine of damnation but acquitted. I remember that at the time Punch magazine commented wryly that freeborn Englishmen wanted to defend their ancient right to be eternally damned.

So there is a big history concerning the Athanasian Creed and its place in the Anglican Church. I think the broad view today is that it does not have the authority of a Catholic Creed, it can be divisive in Ecumenical relations etc – so its status has been downgraded. Also its status as a persecution text is acknowledged by many too. And it is not for frequent use in the Church – because the average Christian will not understand it. However, it is an important historic document that affirms Chalcedonian Orthodoxy and should be respected as such with all the qualifications about its Catholic status and its historic uses borne in mind

All the best

Dick

Jason/Sobornost: Thank you so much for the time, education and effort displayed in your posts. :slight_smile:

You make a very convincing case for the Athanasian Creed not being a ‘catholic’ creed and for its dubious reception in Anglican tradition (especially Episcopalian). If the term ‘catholic creed’ in the Declaration was left to personal interpretation then it would seem to be no problem, as I find the scholarly arguments persuasive and so could in good conscience say I didn’t class the Athanasian Creed as ‘catholic’ or accepted.

However, I am unsure as to whether the wording of the Declaration officially carries this broad idea of personal interpretation. With a public vow like this, it seems that the only conscientious way to interpret it would be in accordance with the intent of the wording *as defined by the institution *setting the oath: it wouldn’t be right to argue (as a ridiculous example) that in a law court you had interpreted ‘the whole truth’ to mean something quite different from the intent of the judiciary no matter how philosophically or technically cogent your argument. What matters is what the court means by the ‘whole truth’; what matters is what the Church of England means by ‘catholic creeds’.

If the CofE had replied to my e-mail with, “The Church has no official position on the status of the Athanasian Creed, and understands the scholarly disputes concerning its authority, thus we allow freedom of conscience about whether or not it is included in the Declaration” then all would be clearly settled (and comprehensiveness still maintained without fudge).

But the prevarication, especially in light of the conservative (majority?) who understand it to include the Ath. Creed, and the still live tradition which sees the Ath. Creed in use in the BCP and Common Worship, worries me. Without a clear statement as to whether or not the CofE include the Ath. Creed (or define it as catholic) it seems that the *prima facie *meaning of ‘catholic creed’ in the Declaration includes the Ath. - especially given the status of the Ath in the BCP in light of the Declaration’s Preface. After all, would you be totally comfortable making such a vow before starting to act as a spiritual guide to others?

Does anyone know if the CofE has a clear statement on what it considers to be included under the term ‘catholic creeds’? It would be odd if it doesn’t define it somewhere, as that would open the door to any possible comnination of creeds being accepted as authoritative, but I can’t find one anywhere.

When we were having a discussion with Alex’s friend Luke (back before he dropped from the CofE to find a denomination more purely Calv…?!), I remember looking around for Reformed Creedal statements, and none of them I could find mentioned the AthCreed or phrased things the way it does in its wrappings statements.

This is why I phrased my reply largely on the presumption the AthCreed was intended to be included among the catholic creeds.

Exactly! Well noted, Dick! :sunglasses:

I routinely teach and preach Trinitarian Christianity as set forth in the Big Three Creeds, including the two main portions of the AthCreed. So as long as someone wasn’t asking me to vow to teach and promote hopeless punishment of one or another kind, I’m fine with affirming the catholic faith statement (“And the catholic faith is this…”) of the AthCreed. I’m even fine with affirming the filioque, although that isn’t a catholic faith statement per se. :wink:

This isn’t only a theoretical exercise for me, btw: I was accepted into the Cadre Journal group on the basis of affirming the Nicene-Chalcedonian creed, for which I have consistently defended and argued.

That being said, since the second lobe or lung of the AthCreed (and one of the earlier ones, I forget which offhand) does talk about judgment and eonian punishment, I wouldn’t be able in good conscience to vow to teach that if I didn’t believe in post-mortem punishment from God (and maybe also one that could last an indeterminately long time).

So if I was an ultra-universalist, I’d have to decline and look somewhere else.

Hi Jason :slight_smile:

I’m no expert on the Creeds – the knowledge I have come from reading about the history last year when I was researching Universalism and the C of E for this site. I got myself a second hand copy of J.N.D. Kelly’s little book on the Athanasian Creed which I understand is the standard authority – and I’ve just taken a second look at what it has to say about the damnatory clauses.

Kelly is very pro the retention of the Athanasian Creed but he notes that that damnatory clauses have long been an issue of debate in the Anglican Church – I think this has been more an issue of charity towards fellow Christians than specifically about universalism (Jeremy Taylor – the Anglican of historic authority who suggested the clauses should be dropped also wrote one of the most horrible meditations on the ‘abominable fancy’ in existence). He also notes that even champions of the creed have often wanted to water down the force of the damnatory clauses by arguing that these suggest only that those who do not believe the dcotrine in the creed are merely not currently in a state of salvation rather than actually damned.

But interestingly he says that from a historical point of view these clauses actually did originally mean that those who did not believe – as the creed teaches – or at least those who taught a version of the faith different than the Creed – would be eternally damned. He notes that in the third century there were voices in the Church raised in favor of the doctrine of UR (he names Origen and Gregory of Nyssa and suggests that they were eccentric voices – something that it seems Ramelli is about to cast doubt upon). But he then says that from the fourth to the seventh century there is a new temper of absolute certainty, and a new preparedness to issue threats of damnation in the Church on any number of issues. Although he doesn’t specify this – of course this new certainty and hardening of attitudes does coincide with the consolidation of the Imperial Church and the rise of Augustinianism. This seems compelling to me – whatever the earliest Church meant by aeonian punishment, this creed actually does mean ECT and ‘outside the Church there is no salvation.

So where does this leave us? Kelly is guarded. He thinks the damnatory clauses are useful in that they drive home the importance of faith decision – but then quotes F.D. Maurice (who he must know was a guardedly hopeful universalist) to back up his point. He also says that some aspects of the Creed reflect the spirit of the times in which it was written.
Kelly also suggest that the damnatory clauses are based on the formula at the end of Mark’s Gospel that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized will be saved and those who are not will be damned. Does damned here mean ‘eternally damned’ I wonder? I’ve read that the Greek actually means something a bit softer like ‘condemned’?

Any thoughts?

Dick

Hey Jason –

You are a tease in showing my ignorance :laughing: . As you well know :laughing: it was the shorter version and earlier version of the Nicene Creed endorsed by the First Council of Nicea (325) which ends with the anathema against the Arians -

[But those who say: ‘There was a time when he was not;’ and ‘He was not before he was made;’ and ‘He was made out of nothing,’ or ‘He is of another substance’ or ‘essence,’ or ‘The Son of God is created,’ or ‘changeable,’ or ‘alterable’—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]

It’s the longer, later version endorsed by the council of Constantinople that excludes this. Cheers for making me look like a banana for my sloppy bits :blush: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

But I guess my vague point still has something in it. The anathema in the Nicene Creed only speaks of condemnation – not of eternal damnation. The curses in the Athanasian Creed considerably ratchet up the stakes and the offence and proved to agitate the alienation of the Western and the Eastern Churches later on. And the frequent use of damnatory clauses in Church edicts from the fourth to the seventh century does coincide with the era when the Church became a persecuting Church rather than the Church of martyrs – which I find significant

It’s not the doctrine of the Athanasian Creed that I and others find fault with. Yes this is top notch. But it is the intemperance of these damnatory clauses – that it seems to me on reflection were written to mean exactly what they say. So if we do interpret them as meaning ‘aeonian punishment’ we are actually reinterpreting them in the light of earlier tradition and what we believe to be the real meaning of the Biblical terms.

I don’t think this needs to cause difficulty – the Creed is Catholic as a wonderful summary of the orthodoxy of Chalcedon - but it is notable for me that it was not endorsed by a universal council and that it has been a cause of grief in the universal Church (because small points of doctrine like the filioque seem to be underpinned with ultimate threat).
Don’t know where this leaves you Pog. But I know that Conservatives in the Church of England are not in the majority – the balance of conservatives, broad Church and liberals is pretty even. And that when you are being asked to affirm that Catholic faith as an Anglican it always, always means affirming the spirit rather than the letter. The fact that you are being asked to affirm something rather than ‘subscribe’ to doctrine as set out in the Thirst Nine Articles is meant to give you room to breathe easy with a clean conscience.

Blessings to you both

Dick

I have been following the thread but not had time to contribute. Thanks to Jason and Dick for your wise words and Pog for your conscientious probing. Pog, I think Dick’s final point hits the nail on the head for me. I’d add that the only way to find a church whose doctrine is absolutely clear and which you agree with on every point is to … start your own church! But that has even more drawbacks than ministering within one of the established denominations, all of which are imperfect.

I appreciate your point about it being impossible to find a church where you agree with every point of tradition, revdrew. But depending upon whether or not the CofE classes the Ath Creed as catholic, it seems that for all it’s acceptance of universalist clergy, the CofE requires that priests declare their ‘belief’ in ECT. This seems not only a glaring contradiction between its practice and writing, but seems to lay clergy open to the accusation of hypocrisy.

I guess I need to know whether or not the CofE ‘officially’ includes the Ath Creed (full) under the Declaration. If it does, then I cannot take such an oath in good conscience, even if I know that the CofE don’t care if you work around this is some fashion, because of how it appears, and because of the actual wording and intent behind what I’d be assenting to. I’m not sure how else to get around it?

Pog - just a thought; but this seems like an ‘Inclusive Anglican’ issue and so i hope you’d get a definitve answer to your question from the Anglican INclusive Church network (o at least give the something to think long and hard about). You can contact them at:

inclusive-church.org.uk/contact

Good luck to you old chap. I respect you for your stand. I’ve never taken vows :slight_smile:

Well, I’m still waiting for another reply - I very much doubt I’ll get one. It seems that the CofE approach to this issue is to put their fingers in their ears …

Oh well :confused:

Let me know how you get on Pog; if you don’t get any replies, I’ll chance my arm at getting a response.