The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Universalist themes in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein

Studies Books
#1

Hello everybody

As a lad I was a big fan of both the ‘classic’ Universal horror movies (Boris Karloff as Frankenstein’s monster etc) and England’s finest Hammer horrors (Christopher Lee and Peter Cushing as Dracula and Dr Frankenstein respectively). As a result, I read the novels of both *Frankenstein *and *Dracula *when I was about 11 or 12. I found Dracula a cracking good read, but Frankenstein bored me rigid!

However, when at University I read it again as part of my English degree curriculum, and realised it is actually a profound philosophical work, shot through with deep religious themes and rich Christian and Biblical imagery. Although Mary Shelley was the son of atheist philosopher William Godwin, and married to the proselytising atheist poet Percy Bysshe Shelley, it seems – as far as I can ascertain (God bless Wikipedia :smiley: ) – that Mary herself held vaguely pantheistic beliefs. Despite this, there is no doubt that the Christian imagery and allegory in her novel are quite deliberate.

The very theme of the novel – the creation of human life – is overtly Biblical. The creature refers to himself as Adam on occasion, although he is never given a name by his creator. (Contrary to popular belief, he is not called Frankenstein!) He also compares himself to Lucifer from Paradise Lost. Indeed, the novel’s epigraph is a quotation from Milton’s classic work:

“Did I request thee, Maker, from my clay
To mould Me man? Did I solicit thee
From darkness to promote me?”

Now it seems to me that here we are touching on clearly Universalist themes – although I doubt this was Mary Shelley’s intention. I’m not claiming her as some sort of crypto-Universalist. :slight_smile:

The first, as articulated in the epigraph from Paradise Lost, is mankind’s protest to his maker, which if I can paraphrase crudely is along the lines of “I didn’t ask to be born, or to be born with an inherited sin nature” – the implication being, “so don’t blame me if I do bad things” (and indeed, “it’s not fair or just for you to damn me eternally”).

The second is the idea of the creator Frankenstein’s parental responsibility to his creature. This is a theme that Thomas Talbott also explores in The Inescapable Love of God, where he talks about (I quote from memory here) “God’s freely embraced parental obligation to his children”, ie to do His loving best for them at all times.

Now from a Universalist perspective, I do believe that God has a “freely embraced parental obligation to his children” – as indeed *we *do towards *our *children. I believe this obligation does indeed include, as Tom Talbott asserts, an obligation to rescue us from our inherently sinful and disobedient state, from which we are powerless to rescue ourselves. And therefore, in my opinion, Christian Universalism is necessarily entailed.

Now this issue is a lot more complex than my brief summary suggests. But I would be very interested to hear everybody’s thoughts and opinions (and indeed to explore *Frankenstein *and its philosophical / religious themes in more depth, if anybody is so inclined).

Shalom

Johnny

PS Just in case anyone was wondering, my (temporary) new avatar shows the legendary Sir Christopher Lee CBE as Frankenstein’s monster in Hammer’s 1957 classic The Curse of Frankenstein. Is that how I see myself? Sometimes … :smiley:

I was fortunate enough to meet and interview Mr Lee back in the early 90s. A true gentleman. Known immortally to my generation as Dracula, but probably more famous these days as Saruman from Lord of the Rings!

#2

I think this is an astute observation regarding the lost. I myself experienced the empathetic “other aide of the coin” from a believer’s perspective: survivor’s guilt.

Every man has their “mustard seed” of faith - their little speck of revelation that they KNOW to be true. My own was an unshakeable conviction: I am no better than anyone else.

So why would God make his grace resonant to me? (I didn’t know the word then, but I was an Arminian). How could he have made people for whom his Grace was not resonant? It seemed like a class-action lawsuit would occur if a car manufacturer made vehicles that didn’t work 80% of the time (depending on their liberality or conservatism I’d say Christians estimate 50%-90% of people end up in hell).

I wasn’t a Calvinist believing this was Gods will, but I did believe in God’s omniscience - he would know a priori whether a creature he made would accept him. Why did he make me so, when my Fellows, whom He clearly directs me to love, were made deaf to Love’s call?

I felt immense guilt, and then increasing confusion. Then, I believe God had mercy on me and opened my eyes to His (sort of) hidden plan. He is merciful to those who give mercy. But the proud He humbles.

#3

Forgive me, but my post will be slightly unenlightening…

Sir Christopher Lee was Frankenstein? I love that actor!!! :smiley:

That pic looks good too in a creepy kind of way. :wink:

#4

Hi Nottirbd

Thanks for your thoughtful observations.

I agree with you that God is merciful to the merciful. But of course - praise him! - He is also merciful to the unmerciful.

What I am really interested in here is in what Milton - and Mary Shelley - explore in the notion that human beans (as my grand-daughter calls us) cannot help being what we are, ie sinful, hence it is unjust - nay, immoral - to hold us accountable, indeed damnable, for being so. This is my major beef with both Arminianism ***and ***Calvinism. Actually it’s my major beef with the Christian faith, as it is popularly preached:

If we have no *choice *in being born, and no *choice *in being sinful (as we undoubtedly are), how in the name of all that’s sacred can we possibly be held accountable for anything we *ever *do? And how could God be ‘just’ and ‘righteous’ in damning us eternally simply for being what he made us - ie sinful human beans?

Johnny is confused.

Shalom

#5

Hi 1Cor1522

On the contrary, your post is highly enlightening. It’s always a pleasure and a privilege to meet anyone who reveres the great Sir Christopher Frank Carandini Lee CBE!

J

#6

I can really relate to this bro, very similar to my own experience. Thanks for sharing :slight_smile:

#7

Matt (the other Matt) is (or has been) confused too :neutral_face:

Thanks for starting this thread, Johnny. Good stuff :slight_smile:

#8

Hi Matt (other Matt)

Thanks for your comments. Germane, direct and heartfelt, as always, my friend. :slight_smile:

This for me is the biggest conundrum in Christianity - at least it was, until I became a convinced hopeful dogmatic Arminian Christian Universalist!

If God made us (which if He exists, He did), and if He made us with the capacity to choose (which experience tells us that He did), and if He knew that we would choose bad (which we patently have), then He is ultimately responsible for us being the way we are - ie lost. Perished. Whatever you want to call it.

Which means, as the loving father the Bible - and Jesus - tells us He is, He must make provision to rescue us from the fate to which He himself has otherwise consigned us. I don’t buy the Arminian line about Him ‘allowing’ us to damn ourselves (I wouldn’t let *my *kid kill themself) or the Calvinist line about Him deliberately choosing to damn us (if He does that He isn’t God, he’s a monster). So to me, the only *logical *way to believe in God is to believe in Universalism.

*Frankenstein *crystallises these themes of responsibility for me, which is why I think it’s such a seminal work. Nottirbd nails it in his (or her, sorry) post:

Everything we know or can imagine or think about God tells us that He is infinitely better, more loving, more merciful, more gracious, more just, more anything you can imagine than any human parent could ever be. I am *utterly *convinced that if God exists - which I believe He does - He *must *be **infinitely **good.

Victor Frankenstein ‘made’ a human being, the modern Prometheus, but when his creature went off the rails he turned his back on him. But Jehovah *never *turns his back on us,no matter how low we sink. He loves us with a greater love than we can ever imagine.

That must be the truth, otherwise God isn’t God.

Just my late night thoughts … :confused:

Shalom

Johnny

PS Post slightly edited to tone down anti-Arminian and anti-Calvinist sentiments. Apologies if I offended anyone with my previously intemperate language. Me and my big mouth. :slight_smile:

#9

You’re welcome. :slight_smile: And your late night thoughts are fine by me bro :slight_smile: In the past, up until now, I had often thought (and cried and screamed :frowning: ) along the same lines, so I can really relate, and I totally agree with you here, Johnny. :slight_smile:

This all reminds me of the last three chapters of Hannah Whitall Smith’s autobiography, the Unselfishness Of God, which I read online a few months ago when I was first exploring UR… powerful stuff. Check it out if you haven’t already:

tentmaker.org/books/unselfishness-of-god.htm

Her closing words are really relevant to what you’re talking about here:

“Still to this day, the one thing which I find it very hard to tolerate, is any thing which libels the character of God. Nothing else matters like this, for all our salvation depends wholly and entirely upon what God is; and unless He can be proved to be absolutely good, and absolutely unselfish, and absolutely just, our case is absolutely hopeless. God is our salvation, and, if He fails us, in even the slightest degree, we have nowhere else to turn.”

But then read the whole thing on Tentmaker for the context. :wink:

Blessings to you bro, and thanks again for sharing :slight_smile:

Matt/Edward

#10

Bro is correct. Sorry, I should start signing my name - Dean. (nottirbd is D Britton backwards. My middle name backwards is even more hilarious - Ecnerwal.)

#11

Hey bro :slight_smile: My middle name backwards is Naneek :laughing:

#12

Hi Matt

Thanks for the Hannah Whitall Smith quote. I think it’s lovely - and true! :smiley:

I have read a bit of her work, but not that whole book - yet.

And Dean

Good to ‘meet’ you, and thanks again for your truly insightful post.

Shalom

Johnny

#13

You’re welcome, Johnny :slight_smile: And be sure to check out that Tentmaker link when you have the time. :slight_smile: It’s good stuff. :slight_smile:

Blessings :slight_smile:

PS. I may have to give Frankenstein another shot sometime. I read Dracula back in my teens, and I thought it was a cracking good novel like you did, but when I tried reading Frankenstein, I gave it up after the first couple chapters. :laughing:
But with what you’ve said about it, I may give it another try sometime. :slight_smile:

#14

“Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up your loins like a man! I will question you, and you will answer me.”
“Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? He who argues with God, let him answer it.”
“Will you even put Me in the wrong? Will you condemn Me that you may be in the right? Have you an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like His?”
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” BUT who are you, o man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction…
Like the Indigo Girls once sang, “the hardest to learn was the least complicated”. This is real easy to understand, it’s just impossible to accept.

#15

Ah, but God in the end blessed Job, even commended Job for speaking more truly of Him then Job’s ‘friends’ did, and though He rebuked him for stepping over the line in some places, He never thumped him or punished him for asking questions. :slight_smile:

As for Romans 9, I wrestled with it for a long time, even shouted angrily at God because of it a few times in the past, but now I’ve come to believe that Romans 9 is only the beginning of a longer and more complex thought from Paul, which includes Romans 9-11, ending with this:

“For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.”

Context, in other words. :slight_smile:

Check out Jan Bonda’s book The One Purpose Of God (which I’m currently reading) as he delves deeply into the letter to the Romans from a UR perspective, including extensively on Romans 9-11, which may help you understand how many of those who believe in universal reconciliation look at Romans 9.

But maybe my thought on this could be summed up in this poem by John Donne, who himself wrestled with the kinds of passages that you shared, and in fact did a thorough study of the whole concept of fear in Scripture, when he was very ill and fearing death, and concluded that ‘trust is the proper fear of the Lord’ (something that resonates deeply with me)… but anyways, here it is:

Hymn to God in my Sickness
By John Donne (1573–1631)

"I am coming to that holy room,
Where with the choir of saints for evermore
I shall be made Thy music, as I come
I tune the instrument here at the door,
And what I must do then, think here before.

We think that Paradise and Calvary,
Christ’s cross and Adam’s tree, stood in one place;
Look, Lord, and find both Adams met in me;
As the first Adam’s sweat surrounds my face,
May the last Adam’s blood my soul embrace.

So in His purple wrapp’d receive me, Lord,
By these His thorns give me His other crown;
And as to other souls I preach’d Thy word,
Be this my text, my sermon to mine own:
“Therefore, that He may raise, the Lord throws down.”

Blessings to you, bro, and peace :slight_smile:

Matt/Edward

#16

Matt/Edward, the Lord DID bless Job (some dispute the ending of Job, but I’ll let it stand), but that does nothing to alter the meaning or answer the rhetorical questions asked by the Lord. Job laments his pitiful condition and God responds with His sovereignty over all of the Creation. As far as Romans 9, we do not get pick and choose where to begin and end. But, if you’d like to, then start at 8:29 and continue through there to the end of 11. Yes, national salvation is in view to varying degrees, but so is personal salvation. The evangelist, under the inspiration of the third Person of the Godhead, clearly anticipates the outcry of injustice on God’s part. That makes perfect sense. We see that same outcry here on this forum and numerous others like it every day. Paul then responds by saying “Who are you to question God?” Then he goes on to say that salvation comes by faith in Christ, in hearing by the preaching of the Word. This has nothing to with post-mortem conversion. You must forcefully insert it into the text in order to avoid the obviousness of his arguement. If the apostle’s intent were to say that every single human being who ever existed would be saved, either in this life or the one to follow, then there would be no anticipation of injustice on God’s part.

#17

“Like the Indigo Girls once sang, “the hardest to learn was the least complicated”. This is real easy to understand, it’s just impossible to accept.”

Yes. Yes it is. Thank GOD for that.

Scripture is a two-edged sword, penetrating to the heart. It has been quoted by abolitionists and slave owners, anti-Semites and Freedom Riders. It is a Rorschach Test.

Jesus fought with (and was crucified by) those who “knew” scripture best, but misapprehended the Heart of it’s Author.

Have you been chosen as vessel of mercy Jaxxen? Praise God. But do not “Thank Thee Lord that you did not make me like other men” (which if they are intellectually honest is the only coherent prayer of a Calvinist…)

What will the Maker do with those more common Vessels? He is Just, in Him I trust. He had mercy on me, the worst of sinners. He told me to love those vessels - does He love them less than His miserable servant?

You’ll say He does as he will. But it is “impossible to accept” that in the Author of light there is a shade of darkness. We argue over the heart of GOD, and I would sooner be crucified myself than to say THE LORD is evil. Hard? Relentless? Stern? Just? Uncompromising? Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. But good. Always.

#18

Jaxxen: Hey bro, thanks for the prompt response. :slight_smile: Well, before I jump in, I want you to be aware that I haven’t gone to seminary, or Bible college, and I’m not a scholar by any means… just a 29 year old janitor who lives in a trailer with his mother and his sister, a dog and two talkative cats. :slight_smile:

I’ve only read through the whole Bible once (and the reputably not very literal New Living Translation at that), and I’ve only read a few books here and there, mostly heavy on the grace side of things, and though I’ve given popular Calvinists a fair shot in some of my reading, listening to MacArthur and Piper and the like here and there, honestly I couldn’t bring myself to listen to them very much , because what they had to say drove me bonkers and/or left me in confusion and despair… so for sanity’s sake, I could only delve so deep. :neutral_face: So, though I am aware of some of the Calvinists arguments, I am by no means college-educated on the subject. :neutral_face: Nevertheless, I have given them a fair shot.

With that said, I’ll jump in…

If I could give a fair shot to and also survive listening to ‘orthodoxy’ (so-called) that basically has only ever driven me (and many others I might add) into depression and close to the brink of losing my mind (and you’ve got to ask yourself, why would such a response as that be so natural and common when the message is supposed to be ‘good news’, as they say?), then couldn’t you give a fair shot to and survive listening to ‘heresy’ (so-called) that would perhaps confuse you a bit but would never cause you to despair, and only stir your heart to a greater hope?

I really think you should check out the book I recommended bro. :slight_smile: It’s on Amazon:
amazon.com/One-Purpose-God-D … 472&sr=8-1
It’s a little spendy (well, to me it is anyway), unfortunately, so if you’d like, when I have the money (probably when I get my tax return) I could buy you a copy myself, and then mail it to you, if you only promised to read it with an open mind. :slight_smile:

I know I may be coming off as a bit antagonistic here, but I don’t mean to…
I respect you Matt, and I appreciate your kind heart and sympathetic attitude towards those that you disagree with. :slight_smile:

But we are at an impasse really, just as you and Johnny are… neither is willing to budge at the moment from his convictions and his beliefs… our reasons for not doing so may be similar or different or somewhere in between, but nevertheless, neither can really convince the other to come and join him on his side of things. :neutral_face:

But I will say that I have more to lose if I’m wrong, and you have more to gain if you are.

If I’m wrong, then, to put it bluntly, some schizophrenic/self-absorbed/tyrannical deity (I’m not trying to insult you here, bro, because I know you don’t reflect this in your own character and heart, but rather I’m speaking out against what, at least to me, the Calvinist teaching of limited atonement, or the ‘few will be saved, most will be condemned, before they’re even out of the gate’ teaching, entails, when painting a picture of God’s character and heart, or lack thereof) will torment me forever for believing that he was better than he really was, that he cared more about and could do more for humanity than he ever really did…
Basically, I would be condemned for giving God the greatest of compliments, and for taking him at His word, that His love really doesn’t fail, ever, and that all things really are possible with Him… imagine that, being cast out for believing wholeheartedly in God’s promises. :neutral_face:
In which case you would be, perhaps, looking down on me in hell, or the lake of fire, or whatever you want to call it, along with Jonathan Edwards and John Piper and the like, enjoying, along with God, my utterly illogical torment, while you worshipped this insane Lovecraftian horror in disguise, who kept you and a few others around for some sick reason, that he might call love, but has no real bearing on any humanly experienced or positive meaning of that word. :neutral_face:

(My apologies if what I wrote above offends you at all, but this is how I see the matter, and I don’t believe you or anyone else could ever convince me otherwise. I look around me, I look at my fiancee, at my family and my friends, at the good all around me, even in a world full of darkness and brokenness, and think to myself ‘such a God could not create all that goodness, could not even create someone like me who longs for more of the same, would have no basis from which to create such things, being as selfish and cruel as he is’ or like my fiancee Kaylyn says ‘if God is a monster, then how could have He created me?’)

But, if you’re wrong, then you would find that God’s love is like that of a good parent for their child, unconditional and everlasting, only far far greater, and this love is not only for you and those like you, for the ‘elect’, but also for your family and your friends, who aren’t ‘elect’, for people on the street and in your workplace, and in the stores that you shop in and in the restaurants you frequent, who aren’t ‘elect’, and even for your enemies, for the people you don’t like, who aren’t ‘elect’, and for all people, who aren’t ‘elect’, throughout the world and throughout time, no matter how detestable or messed up they may be… and that God is not a quitter.
That He doesn’t give up on people, ever, let alone so quickly, after a brief life that is but a breath in the realm of eternity… let alone forever condemning people before they are even born…
You would find a God who’s judgment is for the purpose of, in the long run, showing mercy, who’s wrath is against sin, this sickness that infects all people, and He means to eradicate it, but also means to heal and set free all those people throughout the world and throughout time who have been held in its grip… a God who is ultimately humble and gentle of heart, as Jesus showed… who’s anger lasts for a moment, but who’s favor lasts for a lifetime…
You would find a God that you could trust completely, instead of someone you would always have a lingering dread of… you would find reason to say ‘how glad I am to have been wrong!’

So you have so much more to gain in being wrong, while I have so much more to lose…

Just think on this, bro… in this life, we are only debating.

In the next, when the veil is lifted, we will find out which of us is right, and which of us is wrong, for sure… until then, I will wager on hope rather than despair.
I would rather take a shot, and believe that God really is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in love, like the Scriptures say, and that His love never fails, like the Scriptures say, that He is mighty to save, like the Scriptures say, instead of concluding that he effectively hates many of those whom I’ve loved, and hates me for doing so, for wanting him to love them with a saving love too, even though he commands me to do so when he himself does not, like the totally schizophrenic hypocrite he would be if such a God turned out to be real…

I know you’ve got ten years on me, but I think I’ve wrestled with these things even more then you have, bro. I can scarcely imagine few have… and if anyone has, my goodness, how terrible that must have been :neutral_face:
But I believe that God’s answer to my countless agonizing prayers over the years is something like this:
‘I’m not a monster, my child, but a Father who cares, not a tyrant, but a King who understands… and all those fears you have had about Me over the years?
All those cries and screams and tears you have shed in the middle of the night? I have heard them all and I have shared in your pain, in your anguish, in the bitterness and the gale, just as I have shared in it with my servant Jeremiah and with many, many others, for I am near to those who are broken-hearted and crushed in spirit… but you do not need to be afraid, my child.
Because what you’ve feared is simply not true.
I’m… not… like… that. You can trust me, with your heart, with your life, with everything… and with everyone.
One day, all people, everyone, all those who have been born and all those who have died, will see Who I really Am, and they will rejoice, and they will be glad, and they will be home…’

And I’m going to hold onto that, like Job held onto his faith, even if I find myself in a situation where, like Job, I’ve got people all around me telling me how wrong I am to hold onto it…

I believe God corrected and rebuked Job because he was leaning on his own understanding more than He was trusting Him… but the fact that He blessed Job, and restored, even doubled, his fortunes… I believe it says more then you think it does, bro… it says that mercy triumphs over judgment. And He not only showed mercy to Job, but to his ‘friends’ as well, who had been harping on him…

And as to Romans 9?
Bro, you’ve gotta keep in mind that that’s just your interpretation (which honestly didn’t make much sense to me, but that’s probably not any fault of yours, but probably cause I’m tired and dis-focused cuz I’m fighting a cold and all :neutral_face:)
These things are all a matter of interpretation, really, when it comes down to it. There is no guarantee that you are right, nor that I am right. This is a matter of faith, not sight.
When the veil is lifted, it may be sight, but till then, it’s faith.
I believe what I believe now because it makes a lot more sense to me then what I believed, or tried to believe, before, and because I believe it is what God has revealed to me.
And perhaps you feel the same about what you believe.

I guess I’m just asking that you would give UR a fair hearing, and not just to seek to disprove it in some way, but be open to the possibility that it is true, because let’s face it, you would have a lot to gain if it was true, and you would have a much greater hope to share with your friend who is struggling, which is one of the main reasons you are here in the first place. :slight_smile:

Sorry for such a long rambling answer, but I felt it was needed. Hopefully you’re not overwhelmed by it :blush:

Whatever the case, blessings to you bro, and peace :slight_smile:

Matt/Edward

#19

Peace…I don’t know if you were…but IF you were, no need to denigrate yourself or act as though you’re not worthy to offer a gracious, truthful reply. There are many wealthy, educated people that don’t possess half of what you do. And like I said in the PM, your fiancee is a lucky gal :smiley:
I think you’ve made very well-thought replies and good points. The “Paschal’s Wager” is one that I’ve been wanting to bring up myself but haven’t gotten around to yet. We are at an impasse, but that’s OK. I’d really like to start another thread as to how we view God as a monster…I think I’ll try to do that. I have more empathy with your views than you might realize. As far as learning EU, I think my mission was accomplished. I actually think that I could lead a small UR study if pressed. I know I’ve been a thorn for many here, but that wasn’t my intent-just a byproduct of my differing views. FWIW, I’m also a thorn to many of my Reformed friends at church :wink:
You’ve conducted yourself with dignity and grace, Matt. You owe me no apologies whatsoever. I do feel that my time here is drawing to a close, but before then I would like to clarify certain things. If God is willing-and if the creek don’t rise-I’ll try to do just that.

Deutero-Matt

#20

I started a thread about Civil Rights because reading the works of King and Lincoln gave me a wild hope that the prophetic Spirit of God continues to act in this world. I think this, EdwardTulane, is the closest thing I’ve seen to revealed scripture on the site. I’m humbled to read it, and inspired. God’s grace be upon you! And you too Jaxxen!

He has saved us! He IS saving us! And he WILL save us! Praise GOD the Almighty!