The Evangelical Universalist Forum

"We all deserve Hell" ?

Theology Philosophical
#1

I was sitting in church this morning and my mind, as it tends to do, drifted off. I couldn’t get out of my head the idea that I’ve heard repeated time and time again: “We all deserve to go to Hell.” I seriously wonder if the people who say this have given much thought to what they’re saying (and keep in mind that all of them I’ve heard mean ECT).

From a philosophical standpoint, does this really make sense? That everyone who’s ever lived or will live is so bad, no matter how hard they try, that they deserve to be tortured forever for it. I guess the problem is in believing that eternity is either/or. No, we can’t deserve Heaven. But does that mean that we do necessarily deserve Hell?

Edited for brevity.

#2

What does it actually mean to say that someone “deserves” something? The word usually relates to a system in which good behaviour is rewarded and bad behaviour is punished.

God is not interested in past performance, but in present character. All of God’s judgments are remedial.

Even under a system of rewards and penalties, it seems ludicrous to suppose that ANYone deserves eternal torment for doing wrong for a finite number of years (usually 70-100).

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

#3

Yep it’s just plain stupid. Even from a “biblical” standpoint it makes no sense, especially so when understanding the historicity behind Jesus’ “hell” language, i.e., the soon coming temporal desolation of the Roman-Jewish wars of which the same decimating ends would occur as reflects the same type of ends that befell Israel in times past at the hands of Assyria and Babylon etc… it was all death and torment in the valley of Hinnom, that is, Gehenna [hell].

#4

Hi Rachel

To say we “deserve hell” is about as meaningful, or meaningless :smiley: , as saying we “deserve to get cancer” - although the analogy only serves part of its purpose as some hard-core ECT-ers would probably assert that God inflicts disease on sinful people (AIDS is God’s judgement on immorality etc - bleeaarghh). I reckon Paidion nails it when he says that God cares little (maybe nothing) for our past deeds or misdeeds; rather he cares only about what we’re like now, the good we do or don’t do today.

I think you make a very important point in highlighting the philosophical absurdity of hell. Those who cling to the base notion that bad people (which for them usually includes atheists, Muslims, LGBT people, abortion doctors and the people behind Grand Theft Auto :wink: ) deserve hell tend to be dismissive of any extra-Scriptural argument against the doctrine of eternal hell. Unfortunately for them, and fortunately for the thinking majority, the doctrine of hell is, as davo points out, not even Biblical anyway.

Personally I would go so far as to say that we do actually ‘deserve’ heaven - in much the same way as our children ‘deserve’ the best possible life we can give them. But that’s another story …

Cheers

Johnny

#5

Saying we all deserve hell is one of those “plain reading” extrapolations done by “bible believing Christians”, cause obviously anyone who doesn’t agree with their hermeneutic, let alone their interpretation, is clearly not a person that believes the Bible and reads it plainly…no matter how plainly you read it or how much you believe it.

Basically, they’re bonkers.

We all deserve discipline, when we fall, more so if we hurt others doing so. God chastises those He loves, as Paidion says, to teach us righteousness.
i still think it’s more complicated than plain punishment, though.

Humans want retribution and hell for their enemies, which is natural if we’ve been hurt, but God is not human, and His ways are not ours. He has a better way of dealing with things and redressing balances. So it’s a form of pseudo-humility to say we all deserve hell…“but of course those ones over there that i think deserve it more than me, well…i’m saved, so i’m alright. i can just be sad about them (i’m not really)”…that’s what these people are saying.

as for the creators of Grand Theft Auto…they are scholars and gentlemen/women :laughing: such a sense of humour and self-awareness is not often found. the media missed the fact that their games are comedic in intention, and hold a mirror up to society with a cheeky wink.

i think Galdalf’s words are apt in response to this sort of issue

#6

The concept of people deserving Hell is ludicrous, laughable, crazy, insane, without reason, etc. etc. etc. Is an insane person penalized for being insane? (sin is insanity) Is a dead person penalized for being dead? (humanity is dead in our sins) Is a slave penalized for being a slave? (people are born slaves of unrighteousness, prisoners of the kingdom of darkness) Are the blind an deaf penalized for being blind and deaf? (without being born of the Spirit one cannot even see/percieve the kingdom of God) Of course not!

The reason that the whole “deserve hell” thing is promoted is to justify the unjust, to somehow shift the blame from God to man for Hell, assuming there is a Hell. Praise be to God that scripture does not affirm there being a Hell. If there was a Hell it seems to me that Moses would have warned of such at least once in the Law, but hed didn’t, not once! If there was a Hell it seems to me that Jesus would have at least named and warned of such at least once, but He didn’t, not once! If there was a Hell it seems to me that Paul would have at least warned of such once, but he didn’t, not in any of his writings, not once! If there was a Hell, it seems to me that God would have inspired Moses, Jesus, and Paul to name it specifically, describe it vividly, and repeat a warning of such multiple hundreds of times, but He didn’t, not even once! If there was a Hell, God would not have left something so important out of scripture, and left it up to people to read into scripture!

Hell is a doctrine of demons used to control and manipulate people through fear! It maligns God and is one of the greatest obsticles to the advancement and establishment of the kingdom of God on earth, the fulfillment of the Lord’s prayer “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven!” God does not give people a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and sound reasoning.

#7

Well said, Sherman!

#8

The pseudo-humility that often accompanies the statement makes me cringe every time.

Extra points for the LOTR reference, corpselight!

I am having to try very hard to keep my eroding trust in the church & doctrine I grew up in separate from my faith in God. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. It’s good to have like-minded Christians to talk about this with.

#9

No problem! I virtually am a walking LOTR reference :wink:
It’s difficult to not have like-minded people around…you could take a risk and voice your doubts, and doubtless some others would come out of the woodwork, but it’s risky due to the way other people will react.
i am lucky to have some trusted friends that are on my wavelength, but i also know people who despite being a Christian a faaar shorter time and reading the Bible a few hundred times less than i have think they know better because they’re towing the “traditional” line. that is incredibly frustrating!

#10

In the way “bible-believing Christians” typically interpret the hell doctrine, I can’t say I’ve ever really believed that ANYONE deserved it. I mean, it simply doesn’t make sense! Maybe people don’t think this through. Fire and torment F-O-R-E-V-E-R, with N-O H-O-P-E of even a rest or a reprieve ever, ever, ever. The neverending mercies of the Lord have come to a final end and there is no more for our wailings and bitter repentances. It’s just flat too late. At some point we, as finite creatures, must drink the last dregs and come to the end of what we deserve – the end of ourselves.

Jesus came to pay the ransom we could not pay – to set us free from bondage to sin and death – to give us the power to die (in Him) to this world and to rise, as the sons and daughters of the Most High that we were always destined and intended to be. We got ourselves into bondage by our own rebelliousness, and He, like Hosea, came to get us out of the mess we were in. Yes, we still have to go through trouble, through the valley of the shadow of death – the vale of Achor – but now it has become the gateway to life and light and joy. For some the way becomes longer I think, because of the extent of the trouble and pain we’ve wrought in the lives of others (and in our own lives), but it is still the Way, and today (if we can see it) it opens onto the sun-washed paradise of the new Beulah Land. Sometimes though, the way is dark and mists close around us and all we can see is the dark vale – then we walk by faith and not by sight, and trust that the Lord, our Shepherd, will not permit that we go forever astray.

I’m not so sure it’s ALL about getting what we deserve, but I do think some of that is probably necessary, to cure us of our waywardness. Otherwise how would we ever cease foolishness? Sometimes you just have to feel the pain. I’m sure you can think of at least several examples :wink: . But a good and loving parent doesn’t give punishment for the sake of revenge but for remediation. Why is it that parents who would NEVER consider taking revenge on spiteful, hateful, or weak and cowardly children, but can only dream of healing them one day, will nevertheless attribute such vices to our infinitely loving, infinitely powerful, infinitely mighty to save Heavenly Father? It is a sad commentary on ourselves which has nothing to do with who HE really is.

Love, Cindy

#11

Nicely expressed, Cindy.

#12

Here’s the argument I’ve heard re: the parent analogy. God’s justice is equally as perfect as his mercy. (And we as humans can’t grasp that kind of justice.) Therefore if one has any sin in his/her life, they must be put away from Him (that is, in Hell for eternity)- except through the blood of Christ. Which is a whole other conversation, as there is debate over what constitutes accepting that gift.

#13

Hi Rachel

This is where the advocates of eternal hell take their 12-gauge, pump-action shotguns, load them with doube-aught buckshot, cock them, take careful aim and then blow their frickin’ feet off :smiley: . God’s justice is equally as perfect as his mercy. As George MacDonald puts it, in his Unspoken Sermon Justice:

… and later, in the same piece:

Both God’s justice and his mercy are perfect expressions of his most fundamental, foundational attribute, his love. God’s justice is an expression of his love, just as his mercy is. And when he punishes, he punishes out of love. Real, saving love that has the best interests of the sinner at heart.

As Thomas Talbott puts it, “for though God’s love may indeed take different forms at different times, his mercy demands everything his justice demands, and his justice permits everything his mercy permits … in other words, ‘mercy’ and ‘justice’ are but two different names for God’s one and only moral attribute, namely his love.”

So next time some churchified type tries to tell you sinners must go to hell because God demands justice for sin, you can tell them they don’t know what they’re talking about :smiley: .

All the best

Johnny

#14

But does that mean that we do necessarily deserve Hell?

I think you know it’s really a rhetorical question. It’s a tradition that we are all sinners and God is Holy and he can’t look upon sin and that we all deserve hell except for Jesus righteousness.
It’s partly true in that Jesus is righteous but God can indeed look upon sin. Jesus is Holy and where did he spend most of his time? With sinners like us.
The Holy Spirit is in this world occupied by sinners also, so God is not so delicate He can’t handle sinners.
So we may or may not deserve hell but it’s God’s will that everyone s/b saved and come into a knowledge of the truth. I think God’s will rules.

#15

I believe hell exists, if defined as George MacDonald understood it, as God’s mercy in correcting people. It will be uncomfortable, but God will give them no more discomfort than is absolutely necessary for their repentance (change of heart and mind) and submission to Him.

But the question for me is this: Where do these professed “Bible-believing Christians” get from the Bible their idea that death is the cut-off point which fixes one’s eternal destiny? The only verse I’ve ever heard them quote in an attempt to justify this idea is, “It is appointed for man once to die, and after that the judgment”. But that sentence in no way states that there is no post-mortem repentance. All it is saying is that everyone will die, and face judgment after death. And if all of God’s judgments are remedial, as I believe them to be, then we should welcome judgment.

#16

Btw sis, the trying of our faith works in us perseverance, growth in our souls, so that our faith is truly not in man, not in ourselves or others, not in our understanding of things, not in some formula, but in the only one worthy of our trust, Jesus. So be filled with faith knowing that you are loved, that you are more precious than rubies, that you are more costly than gold. You are the apple of His eye, a sheep in His pasture, a child at His table. Faith flows from knowing you are loved!

Blessings upon you and yours,
Sherman

#17

In response to rsipper’s important question, Cindy wrote in part:

You make some excellent points, Cindy, as always. Even some relatively conservative Christian philosophers now ask the very kind of question that rsipper has also posed: How could any sin that a finite being commits in a context of ambiguity, ignorance, and illusion deserve an infinite penalty as a just recompense? In fact, the vast majority of Christian philosophers, even those who still accept the possibility of an everlasting separation from God, no longer accept a punishment model of hell at all (see, for example, Jonathan Kvanvig, The Problem of Hell (Oxford University Press, 1993). And it was C. S. Lewis, of course, who first insisted that the gates of hell are closed from the inside. For given Lewis’ own understanding, rejecting even the worst of sinners forever would have been contrary to God’s loving nature. But Lewis also accepted the possibility that some sinners would freely reject God forever. And even though such an idea strikes me as ultimately incoherent, it nonetheless represents, I believe, a step in the right direction.

-Tom

#18

What just about strikes me dumb is when it is argued that God doesn’t send a person to Hell; they choose Hell themselves by rejecting Jesus. (whether they have seen any proof that this choice is real and its consequences eternal doesn’t seem to be an issue) What sane person would do that? It’s just not that simple.

Thanks for the kind words, Sherman :slight_smile:

#19

Welcome to the forum, btw, Rsip! :slight_smile:

It won’t be long before you’re past the auto-mod requirement; a few more posts should do it. Please feel free to set up an introduction thread for yourself in the Introduction subcategory, too. (Or not if you don’t want to, that’s okay.)

#20

I agree whole-heartedly which is why the whole “hell is locked from the inside” idea seems incoherent to me. Here’s a quote from Dr Tallbott from this paper, “Freedom, Damnation, and the Power to Sin With Impunity”:willamette.edu/~ttalbott/Impunity.pdf

The paper is well worth reading… :smiley: