The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What About Matthew 12:31-32 and Mark 3:29, Which Ages?

Evangelical Universalism
#1

Which Ages? The people who are insisting on the Doctrine of Hell, don’t look carefully to Matthew 12:32!

Matthew 12:31-32:

New International Version (©2011)
31. And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age (Grace Period) or in the age to come (Millennium Kingdom).

Young’s Literal Translation
31. Because of this I say to you, all sin and evil speaking shall be forgiven to men, but the evil speaking of the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men. 32. And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age (Grace Period), nor in that which is coming (Millennium Kingdom).

Mark 3:29:

New International Version (©2011)
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin."

Young’s Literal Translation
but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness – to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;’

The pain of eternal hell - I'm at my breaking point
#2

Are you meaning that things can’t be over because there are ages to come? You didn’t explain yourself and I don’t have a working crystal ball. :imp:

#3

The People (specially self-righteous one who think they are saved and others are not saved and without knowing are judging the unbelievers) who are making God Hitler, they don’t even know what is the good news! see the post about Matthew 25:46 and everlasting punishment, I wrote some comments, to find out what is the real good news.

Matthew 24:3 (NIV)
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when these things will be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the AGE (aion)?”

studybible.info/strongs/G165

studybible.info/strongs/G166

#4

Eric,

There are varying opinions as to what Jesus was talking about here. First, His statement: “neither in this age nor in the age to come” seems to me to be referring to the present age (as Jesus was speaking). Some people believe that age ended with Jesus’ death and resurrection. They believe the Messianic age began when He was raised from among the dead. I don’t know whether I agree with them or not – I’m not sure we can segregate the ages so neatly.

Paul said in Romans 1-2 that what can be known of God is displayed in the world around us. In this world around us I find that the closer I look, the more complicated and intricate things become. There are no smooth transitions from one thing to another. If they look smooth, that’s because I haven’t looked closely enough. I don’t expect smooth transitions between the ages, either. Everything is a gradient, a continuum. God is fond (apparently, from what I see around me) of rough edges.

So the Messianic age . . . maybe it did begin with Jesus’ resurrection – but the age He referred to as “this age” in the verses you cited did not end with His resurrection. Paul, years later, refers to the “rulers of the darkness of this age” and to our wrestling matches with them. The age of this world – of the flesh – of the fall of mankind and the fall of angels – is still very much with us. The Messianic age (for which the Jews hoped) did in a sense begin with His resurrection, and is invading the worldly age, to overtake it and overshadow it and eventually supersede it entirely.

Regarding what this sin consists of: The Jews to whom Jesus spoke these words were in danger of giving offense to the Holy Spirit, who (I believe) is a member of the Trinity, a divine Person, One with the Father and the Son. The Father and Son will forgive if they are spoken against, but they draw the line at offending the Spirit (who I like to think of as feminine, though any gender attached to the Godhead is highly questionable). They will not forgive in this age or the age to come, the one who offends HER! No way. That is going way too far.

Or there is the perhaps more reasonable explanation that if the Spirit withdraws in offense, the person who has offended will have driven away the only One who could bring repentance to him. Therefore he will not receive effective forgiveness (though it has been given) because he, in his arrogance, does not see his need for it. The Spirit has withdrawn, having been called horrible names (Beelzebul) and will not return until she pleases. As is the case with many human women (including me), this could be quite a while. :wink:

Jesus says nothing about forgiveness of this offense in subsequent ages, though. And His statement sounds more like a warning that the Jewish leaders are in danger of crossing that thin red line, than a decree that they have in fact done it, and it is too late for them now!

The Jews as I’m sure you know, were heavily invested in the prospects of enjoying the Messianic age. Such a warning would send a cold chill of dread through them, I imagine, if they took Jesus’ words seriously at all.

Blessings, Eric – I hope that is of some help in your thought process. :slight_smile:

Cindy

#5

for quotation above Muslims say the Messiah should come in order to resurrection occurs,

i think the meaning of the quotation above is the first one i mentioned below, that there are two meanings of resurrection these people are mentioning:

1st meaning is becoming a born again believer (spiritually),
and 2nd: the resurrection of the dead for 1st and 2nd resurrection that will happen in future, right?

by the way, Thanks

#6

So Eric you are an Armenian Christian living in Iran then? Welcome :smiley: You are fascinating.

#7

And I’ll stop trying to play the expert on Islam - that’s you :slight_smile:

#8

Thank you, you know Muslims believe that their religion is updated and the last one, that Christ didn’t die on the Cross, In fact Christianity is not a religion, it is a big Mystery, i think Plan of God, why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil? it had a purpose!

#9

Could you tell us a little about Armenian Christians? It’s the Church of the East?

#10

In 301 it was the First nation that Accepted the Christianity by:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Gregor … lluminator

and see this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiridates_ … Conversion

#11

Well we are younger brothers and sisters here then. The only contact I’ve had with Armenian Christians is when I stood behind an Armenian priest (I think) in his leather hood in a queue in a London post office. So like the Greek and Russian Orthodox so you have a permissible tradition of belief in Universal Salvation in your Church - even if it is not the majority belief?

Do you have any famous religious poets that wrote of this hope?

#12

sorry No, i’m not expert in these things, i was just born and i saw i’m in Iran (our ancestors came Iran before Armenian genocide), i’m having difficulties for understanding the Armenia culture and knowledge, even they speak in formal language, we in Iran speak in native Armenian language, here it is just me that came into the universal reconciliation idea, even preaching is difficult to my family, sometimes i think God is calling just few people, few days before repentance i blasphemied against God, but suddenly one day woke up and started to search about NDEs, and for 3 months fighting hard to find the truth, i couldn’t tolerate that my family is going to hell because of being unbelievers,

#13

Oh yes the Armenian genocide - that was such a terrible thing and it completely destroyed a whole culture. You’ll probably find that there is some sort of tradition of universal reconciliation somewhere in Armenian Christianity because there is such a tradition in the wider Eastern Church. We can certainly give you some stuff on the Eastern Universalist we know of like Isaac of Nineveh, Gregory of Nyssa etc, if that would help.

#14

Eric, in case you haven’t noticed, Dick is our chief professor of history here. :wink: I’m so delighted that you two are chatting.

So yes, about the resurrection:

Regarding resurrection, here’s my understanding, which is pretty much orthodox:

Jesus died on the Passover as the Passover lamb. This is one of the spring feasts of the Jews. The feast of Unleavened bread occurs immediately following Passover, during which the feast of Firstfruits is also celebrated. Jesus was raised on the Sunday on which the Firstfruits were to be offered. The feast of Pentecost follows, which is a kind of second Firstfruits celebration, in which the grain from the same crop is made into bread (with leavening/yeast) and offered as a sacrifice. Pentecost is considered the birthday of the church, as this is when the Holy Spirit fell on the disciples (two hundred something of them) as they prayed and waited before God.

Jesus rose from among the dead both physically and spiritually. He became the “Firstborn from among the dead ones” (Colossians 1), and the church rose spiritually on the day of Pentecost. Christ is the Head (that means both the source (like the head of a river) and the leader). (Colossians 1) Christ followers who live by the life of God in Christ Jesus are spiritually raised to life, and we are waiting for the redemption of our bodies. (Romans 8)

The way it looks to me from scripture is that when Jesus returns bodily to the earth, the dead in Christ will be raised and those who are alive at that time will be changed. “This mortality must put on immortality” (I think that’s somewhere in 1 Corinthians – maybe around chapter 16?) This is the “first resurrection,” obviously not counting Jesus’ resurrection or the spiritual life imparted to the believer when he believes.

The second resurrection occurs at the close of the Messianic age. The Messianic age lasts a long time, symbolized by “a thousand years.” It may or may not be a literal thousand years, but if you count the time from Jesus’ resurrection until now as part of that age, it obviously has to be a symbolic thousand years. The second resurrection is a resurrection to judgment and that’s the one with the Lake of Fire so thoroughly discussed and disagreed about on other threads. :wink:

Does that answer what you wanted?

Love, Cindy

#15

Thank you Dick and I read about Gregory of Nyssa,

and about your opinion Cindy, thanks, now see what Muslims said about this, sometimes I think why Bible is so different
from Quran. Ernest L. Martin says Muhammad gave them the Abraham Covenant, because here I see that they are keeping the law just like Jews, only few of them are keeping the law of love:

they believe Jesus didn’t die for our sins that we should practice the law ourselves (they say Christians think because he died for their sins they can do what ever they want), and even they say Quran is more complete than the Bible, I don’t think so, they don’t have the information like the book of revelation, they say Jesus is not God’s only begotten son, and trinity is false, i guess trinity is the Father, Son, and we, because Holy spirit is Father himself,

AND that Jesus was just a prophet, not son of God, a servant, that He didn’t crucified en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra_and_Mi%27raj Muhammad saw Jesus and John the baptist in 2nd heaven (there are 7 heavens), but Martin says Muslims will be resurrected in first resurrection but they will be in 2nd phase or 2nd heaven of Kingdom, and mature Christians in 7th phase (the complete one) that the real evangelizing started from that day, beginning to teach, sometimes if feel fear inside me that maybe God changed his plan in 6th century because of Christian persecution and why he brought another prophet for him AFTER Jesus!?, but i don’t think so because he promised in the Bible, Martin says God can change his Plan, but no, because he promised,

something lacks in them, they are good people but if they believe in Jesus like us they can change themselves, they believe repentance is leaving the sin not by believing in Jesus then leave the sin !!! but i think Jesus died that then we can have repentance by believing in him, ? interesting? :frowning: :slight_smile: a lot of contradiction! :exclamation:

Blessings

#16

The gospel (according to Paul in Romans) is that Jesus came to set us free from the law of sin and death. Yes our sins are forgiven, but it gets better than that. (God is always better than we think!) The law of sin and death is that though we may want to do the right thing, the wrong thing is always right there at hand. “Wretched man that I am! Who can deliver me from this body of death,” Paul writes. And then, “I thank my God, through my Lord, Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.” (That’s the end of chapter seven and the beginning of chapter eight, Romans.)

The Jews and the Muslims have the same problem; living by the law, without the Spirit who empowers us to live by the LIFE of Christ. That is what they’re missing. They try to be good people, but like all of us, without Jesus, they can’t do it.

But I read some pretty horrible descriptions of hell in the quran. I wonder what your friends make of those? Possibly they take them metaphorically, I suppose.

I don’t think (personally) that Muhammad was a prophet. He was afraid that he was hearing from Satan at first and his first wife comforted him and assured him that he was certainly hearing from the true God. There were other times he was in doubt. And there were the “satanic verses,” of course, in which he affirmed, presumably to pacify the faithful pagans in Mecca (before he became powerful), that Allah’s three daughters were to be honored as deities – I forget their names.

Plus, he spent most of his life conquering the whole of the middle east with the sword, to spread Islam (and acquired a ton of real estate and wealth for himself in the process). This doesn’t sound like a true prophet of God to me. To be honest, his story sounds a little more like Joseph Smith’s than like John the Baptist’s or Jesus’ lives. Jesus warned His disciples that they would be persecuted – “The world hated Me, and it will hate you too.” So the persecution didn’t come as a surprise. God’s methods of conquest are completely counter to the world’s methods.

Love you, Bro!

Cindy

#17

Oh yes, who kills by sword should die by sword, thanks for the information, and they have 7 phase of hell(jahannam) too, just like the Bible which was mistranslated to Forever and ever, their hell in Quran is forever too :smiley: i think he wanted to put fear into Arabs by saying hell is forever

that i think the people can find out about the Plan of God just in Bible! of course by the Book of Revelation

Blessings

#18

I would agree, Eric. The bible is more likely to lead you right. Better still, ask the Holy Spirit to lead you as you study the bible. You will be amazed as to the wonderful things you see there when He is helping you. :smiley:

#19

The Armenian Church was strongly related to the Alexandrian Church: both eventually opposed central orthodoxy on a subtle matter of how the two natures of Christ related to one another, and eventually became known as the Oriental Orthodox. (Not to be confused with Eastern Orthodoxy, which is part of the central orthodox tradition, nor the Church of the East, which are the Nestorians.)

And the Alexandrian Church was strongly related to Christian universalism through the leaders of the Alexandrian catechetical school, going back through Origen and Clement of Alexandria (and apparently Clement’s teacher and founder of the university).

So I have seen people mention the Oriental Orthodox, like the Church of the East (and like Eastern Orthodoxy for that matter) being inclined toward Christian universalism.