The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What exactly does "dead" mean, scripturàlly?


#1

Listening…need input pls.

All scripture on it and your understanding of such scripture.

I want to understand what happened to Jesus when He “died.”
Tasted death for every man.

That He died is part of the gospel.


#2

A good question, to which I would like to add:

How do the ‘two-natures’ theorists explain that death? Did God die? Really die? Did the second person of the ‘trinity’ really cease consciousness? Stop existing? Or did one of the two natures just observe the other nature do the dying?

I’m not poking fun - I’m really puzzled by this and have never gotten a good answer.
Thanks


#3

Hebrews 2:9 is where the “tasted death” is found.

I dunno bout anyone else’s usage…it got me woñdering why say tasted?
I would luv to understañd the Hebrew/ Greek usage there of tasted.
I would tend to think to experience a certain anything, one would have to yet be alive, on some level.

Just asking/ exploring.


#4

Too, let me say that the belief death in the physical= no consciousness is something I am personally not convinced of…even from scripture.

Separation from the body, yes.
Unseen, yes.
But what is unseen that can not somehow still be seen? Even though
Perhaps not seen by us on earth?

How can one who does not any longer even exist…hear Him call them…when He raises them from the “dead?” By His voice?

Will He shout to noone existing?
Not saying He couldn’t.
But they will hear.

Somehow. :slight_smile:


#5

Thinking of Lazarus.

He shouted out his name and commanded to come forth.

Lazarus, “dead Lazarus” heard and
got up.

Amazing hearing the dead have.


#6

Matthew 10:8

There’s that word from Jesus too.

Raise the dead.
(Weren’t they like literally…dead?)
Whatever death means.
Among other things He said there.


#7

Dave, I’m not sure who you mean by “the two-natures theorists.” Do they teach that we have two natures, the soul and the body? Or do they teach that the Father and the Son are two natures of the one God? (I just noticed from one of your later questions, it must be the latter).

Maybe your following questions relate to “the two-natures theorists” and ordinary Christians are not being asked these questions. However, I’ll answer the questions anyway as I see it.

No. The Son of God died.

Yes, really.

I’m not a Trinitarian, but I would say that the Son of God really ceased consciousness.

Yep—until the Father raised Him to life again.

Not one of the “natures” but one of the divine Persons. The Father observed the death of His Son.


#8

Thanks Don - I was referring to those who hold that the man Jesus Christ was actually possessed by two natures - human nature and God’s nature. Two consciousnesses as well - which raises a problem for me (I too as you know am not a trinitarian) in that, if one of his natures was divine, then it must have died with the man, or jumped ship right before death, something docetic anyway.
The way you answered it is the way I see it as well.
But I have yet to get a decent answer from someone who holds the trinitarian two-natures theory.
Here is the theory:
"In the year 451, the church convened the great Council of Chalcedon, one of the most important ecumenical councils of all time. It was called to combat several heresies, the most significant of which was the Monophysite heresy. The term monophysite has a prefix and a root. The prefix, mono, means “one,” and the root, phusis, is translated as “nature.” So monophusis or monophysite simply means “one nature.”

The Monophysites claimed that Jesus did not have two natures, a divine nature and a human nature, but only one nature. That one nature was neither completely divine nor completely human. It was, depending on how one looked at it, a deified human nature or a humanized divine nature. This heresy was very serious for two reasons. It denied, on the one hand, the full deity of Christ. On the other hand, it denied the real humanity of Jesus. Against that, the Council of Chalcedon declared that Christ was vere homo, vere Deus, that is, “truly man and truly God,” having two natures in one person."

If that were true, did the Divine Nature die or not?? A simple question.


#9

I’ll try to back off a bit and give others a chance. after this short post. I’m hoping a trin can weigh in on the "“death of the divine” question; to sharpen it up a bit here is a clarification of concerns Re: 2 natures: (Laurie, I think this fits in with your questions? Because if Christ is defined by 2 natures, the death of those 2 natures needs to be understood)

"Is the theory that Jesus has “two natures” more trouble than it’s worth? In this second half of his short book, Alvan Lamson objects to the doctrine of “two natures” in Jesus that it

-implies that Jesus is not an example of faitng?)h and piety for us to imitate
-makes parts of the New Testament impossible for us to understand (Which “nature” is now speaking or acti
-would make it impossible for Jesus to disavow supreme divinity, as anything he says about his inferiority to God can be referred to his human nature
-is unnecessary, as the exegetical problems it is supposed to solve are more easily solved by less extreme and less arbitrary interpretive moves
-misfits the general tenor of the New Testament, which as a whole portrays Jesus as different being than God, who is in various ways less great than God is
-atonement does not require it, and arguments that the sacrifice victim must be of infinite value and have a divine nature are sophistical
-it is neither explicitly taught nor clearly implied by the Bible, and if God had intended to teach it by means of the Bible, it would clearly taught and emphasized there; but, it is not. Thus, it is unlikely to be part of the content of divine revelation. Nor do Jesus’s disciples, in the New Testament, express the astonishment they would have felt upon being shown that he is God himself."

-from Trinities.Org


#10

Thank you, Dave, for explaining that so well.


#11

In chapter 66 of “Donal Grant,” the GMD novel that I am presently rereading:

[size=130]

[/size]


#12

Been elsewhere fighting dragons. :slight_smile:

Back now.

Loving the responses. Thank you. So much to contemplate.

Paidon, to my primary question about the nature of “death”. – and specifically what God’s Son experienced…you believe he had no consciousness after the moment his body died.

Why?


#13

And DaveB…

I am a Trin. :slight_smile:. And a fully convinced universalist.

When I see Jesus, I see God.

I see the *only Life who could overcome - even death. ( whatever death for *us means) .


#14

I am not at all sure concerning understanding any 2 nature theology some theologians have presented.

What is scripture though…is that a body was prepared for Him. Virgin birth and all of that holy conception. Unlike ours who were just born from flesh.

Sent from above. A Life–
Sent from above.


#15

https://media2.giphy.com/media/u0SQkPClLiBry/200.webp#6

This is always a DEEP topic of conversation, with my P-Zombie and Zombie friends. They think they are, the life of the party. But personally, I find them as “dead as a door nail”. :laughing:

https://media2.giphy.com/media/LsFpGvpb9OWbe/200.webp#0


#16

Well, I think what happened experientially to my Lord and Savior who tasted death for every man,
Is important for us all to understand; those preaching good news have also to share His death as part of this good news.

Imo, we cannot understand His overcoming death unless we first understand His very being: Life.
And being Life…How He overcame.


#17

A thoughtful meditation on death and Holy Saturday from a certain Joseph Ratzinger:

thecatholicthing.org/2017/0 … -saturday/


#18

Laurie, I have just searched the New Testament, and have found nothing to indicate that Jesus overcame death. However, I found 8 verses that state that God raised Him from the dead. If He were truly dead, how could He raise Himself? But I understand why you might think so, if you have been singing “Easter” hymns. I have never encountered a single hymn that communicates the truth (as stated by Luke and Paul) that it was God who raised Him from the dead. Rather they make statements such as “Up from the grave He arose,” such statements not being found in the New Testament. We do find statements in the King James such as “He is risen from the dead.” But such statements are NOT tantamount to “He has risen from the dead.” Rather the Greek verb in in the PASSIVE voice which indicates that He RECEIVED the action. The ESV correctly translates it as “He was raised from the dead.” The NKJV slavishly follows the King James with “He is risen.” The NASB incorrectly translates it as "He has risen."There is a great deal of difference between “has risen” and “is risen,” Just as there is a great deal of difference between “The dog has eaten,” and "The dog is eaten (by wolves).

Acts 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
Acts 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.
Acts 4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well.
Acts 10:40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead,
Acts 13:37 but he whom God raised up did not see corruption.
Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
1 Corinthians 6:14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.


#19

Yep, and here’s a few more to that list…


#20

It could be seen, through the philosophical and theological lenses, you are wearing.

Reminds me today, of my weekly, Sunil Bali motivational email. Like how different shops look at things: :laughing: