What is faith? Yours or His?


#1

What is faith?

Faith=pisteo= strong persuasion

Pisteo akin to peitho

We read of the “faith of God” -Romans 3.3

“Your faith” -Rom. 1.8 /2 Cor.2.5/ 2 Cor. 15.17/ Eph. 1.15/ 2 Tim. 1.3/1 Tim. 3.9/ 2 Tim. 1.3

“The faith of Christ” -Gal. 2,16

“The faith of the Son of God” -Gal. 2.20"

“The faith of Christ” -Phil. 3.9

“Profession of our faith.” -Hebr. 10.23

“Christ the Author & Finisher of our faith” -Hebr. 12.2

Hopefully we will pursue this further in coming posts

What are your thoughts?


#2

Questions=

  1. Is the faith of Christ & our faith synonymous?

  2. What is the faith of Christ?

  3. If our faith & His faith are not synonymous what differentiates the two?


#3

Originally Posted by pcamps

Paul said he lived by the son of God’s faith, i have no doubt whatsoever that Jesus lived by faith (absolute assurance)in the awareness of the reality of being one with God, and being aware of that oneness it could not but manifest itself.

Dear Pcamps: indeed he did. The author (unknown) of the Hebrews writes>>>

"Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of [our] faith."

Yup! There is no “our” in the passage.

Jesus Christ is the Author & perfecter of faith.

If He perfected faith, and He did, was the perfection as a man or as Deity? If it was as Deity, what does it mean He emptied himself? What did the Master of Reconcilation empty himself of?

"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:”


#4

The States of Jesus Christ=

  1. He did not send himself.

  2. He did not come in his own name, but the Father’s.

  3. He did not do his works in his own name, but the Father’s.

  4. He could not do the works. The Father abiding in him did.

  5. All works were given to him by the Father.

  6. He was taught all he knew by the Father.

  7. He did not do his own will. He did the will of the Father. He pleased not himself.

  8. He spoke no words of himself.

  9. The Father is greater than I.

  10. The Father gave to him.

  11. He was made a little lower than the angels for 33 yeaars.

Hebrews 2.13

“I will put my trust in Him.”

https://www.biblestudytools.com/hebr…3-compare.html

"Again, he puts himself in the same family circle when he says, Even I live by placing my trust in God. And yet again, I’m here with the children God gave me.


#5

“And now , O Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.”

  1. Jesus asked to be re-instated, or restored to his former glory.

  2. In Phil.2.6-9 Jesus the Christ “emptied” himself of his former place in the Father.

  3. What did he empty himself of?

  4. What does it mean in Hebr. 2.17 “that in all things he was made like his brethren”?

I am forced to believe his brethren are created beings who started at zero. I am also forced to believe that Jesus the Christ “emptied himself” of that which made him “equal” with God. He did in that glorious episode actually become a man of faith.


#6

FineLinen, there are many different faiths. Having faith in the God of Jesus is the same as having the faith of Jesus. For example:
The faith of the Jews= faith in the God of the Jews.
The faith of the Roman Catholics = faith in the God of the Roman Catholics
The faith of Abraham=faith in the God of Abraham

To me,the faith of the Jews is not synonymous with the faith of Jesus.
The faith of the Roman Catholics is not synonymous with the faith of Jesus.
However, I do believe that the faith of Abraham=the faith of Jesus.

What Jesus emptied Himself could have several possible meanings.
Jesus was a Jew and a Pharisee, a priest. He could have “emptied” Himself of this faith to teach of another.


#7

Dear L: the Master of the Reconciliation could indeed have emptied Himself of the various things you suggest. Unfortunately the Scripture tells us what He emptied Himself. What was it?


#8

“Though he was God’s Son, he learned trusting-obedience by what he suffered, just as we do.”

The faith of the Son of God, is the faith we are to enter into as His “especially.” It is the road of trusting obedience thru suffering.

“He learned obedience”=

Manthano=

To learn/ to increase one’s knowledge/ be increased with knowledge.

Akin to mathetes

Mathetes= “a disciple”.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/5-8-compare.html


#9

Originally Posted by hball72
I think that Jesus did everything on the earth as a human. The purpose was to be an example for us.

He learned obedience by the things he suffered. He was tempted in every way, the same as we are, but without sin.

Once, I counted all the places in the NT that the phrases " son of man" and “son of God” were used. Jesus almost always referred to Himself as “son of man”. It was everyone else who called Him “son of God”.

To me, It was an “if I can do this in the flesh, then you can too” kind of thing. It’s encouraging.

My new friend hball:

The Lord Jesus Christ emptied Himself of all that made Him equal with God. He poured it out when He gave up for 33 years absolute emptying as He “became flesh.” He came out of God, emptied Himself of everything making Him equal with God and walked in absolute obedience to Father as a man, Yes, my friend He is the Author and Finisher of faith!

.


#10

Friends: The following word from a dear lady in my wife’s prayer circle is the reason this link began.

The Power of Purpose -Cathy Beckom-

We have all had to walk through those difficult times in our lives when we were not sure of God’s purpose in what we were going through. We could not see how He would bring us through it, not to mention how He would work it out for our good and for His glory. Yet, we can look back and see that He did just that so many times. We finally have to come to the place of surrender to God’s will. That was the prayer that Jesus prayed after His intense battle in the Garden of Gethsemane. He asked His Father to let the cup pass from Him if possible, but then prayed, “Father, not my will, but Thine be done.” Instead of holding on to our will and desire, we have to yield to God’s will and purpose. We don’t always know what that purpose is, so we have to trust Him enough to be willing to release the situation into His hands.

I remember something that a dear friend, Charlotte Torango, said several years ago. I was listening to a CD of a service in which she was sharing the word and she made the statement, “Sometimes God’s purpose is greater than our faith.” I have thought about that often since then. I have come to understand more of what she meant as I realized that the purpose of God for my life was the overriding factor in my coming through a recent battle. He also had a specific purpose for what I was going through. So I am learning the “power of purpose” and wanted to share my thoughts with you.

I heard Pastor T.D. Jakes say, “Your purpose is greater than your pain.” Sometimes the pain is great because the purpose is great. Often the purpose has to be birthed through the pain and intercession. There is tremendous power in God’s purpose. It carries us through those times when our will wants to give up. It will also carry us through when our faith can’t. I will attempt to explain what I mean by this.

Faith is necessary to live the Christian life. Hebrews 10:38 (KJV) says, “The just shall live by faith…” Hebrews 11:6 (KJV) says, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.” Romans 12:3 (KJV) tells us that, “God has given every man “the” measure of faith.” The Amplified says, “God has apportioned to each a “degree” of faith [and a purpose designed for service].” Hebrews 13 speaks of our forerunners who did exploits by faith. He has also given gifts of faith. (1 Corinthians 12:9) So we know the power of faith and the absolute necessity of it in our walk with God. However, I have come to understand the “power of God’s purpose” in our lives is greater than we have realized. I believe that is because it is about “Him” and not “us.” So often we talk about “our” faith, but when we talk about purpose, we are taken out of the picture and the focus is on Him.

How do we use our faith? As we mature in Christ, we come to know that faith is not so much about speaking to our mountains to be removed, but trusting in the purpose of God for our lives to be fulfilled as we face the mountains. Faith has matured into trust, and belief has matured into knowing. Of course, we continue to have faith in God’s word and His promises and always will. But we must also have faith in His purpose and plan for us, and that He will bring it to pass in His way and time as we commit and yield to Him. We have to allow God to use all we have been through to bring purpose out of it for us and for others and to glorify Himself through our sufferings and difficulties. It isn’t faith or purpose, but our faith in alignment with God’s purpose.

Ephesians 1:5 (AmpC) says, “For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent].”

Ephesians 1:11 (AmpC) says, “In Him we also were made [God’s] heritage (portion) and we obtained an inheritance; for we had been foreordained (chosen and appointed beforehand) in accordance with His purpose, Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will.”

2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV), “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.”

You can see from just these few scriptures alone that God created us according to His own will and purpose and for a purpose. Everything created has usefulness and a purpose. The word “purpose” in 2 Timothy 1:9 is the Greek prosthesis which means: a setting forth of a thing; intention. From the Dictionary, the word means: the reason for which anything exists or is done or made; an intended or desired result; aim; determination; resolution; fixed intention in doing something.

Isaiah 14:24 (AmpC) says, “The Lord of hosts has sworn, saying, "Surely, as I have thought and planned, so it shall come to pass, and as I have purposed, so it shall stand.” The word “purposed” in this passage is Hebrew ya’ ats which means to determine, devise, guide, plan.

Isaiah 46:11 (NKJ) says, “Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.” Purpose in this scripture is Hebrew yatsar which means to be formed, fashioned, pre-determined, pre-ordained.

If we have been foreordained, chosen and appointed before we were ever sent into this earth according to His purpose, then doesn’t it make sense that His purpose would be a guiding force in our lives? Would He abandon His purpose for us that He Himself chose? No, I don’t think so. That is why it is so important that we allow His Spirit to work in us to help us discover God’s purpose and enable us to walk in that purpose. Along our journey, we may go through things that we cannot see any purpose in it at all, but our Father knows what is needed in order to bring us into the fulfillment of His purpose in our lives and into the fullness of Christ.

Seeing the magnitude of His purpose, then we must ask ourselves, “What is my purpose? What is the purpose in being alive? Many people struggle with this question and never find an answer, because they are looking for the answer in the material realm and not in the spiritual. We’re all searching for something in life. Whether you want to call it significance, purpose, meaning or something else, there is an innate desire in each of us for our life to matter — to have significance and purpose. But I am speaking of something greater than “our” desire for meaning and purpose. I am speaking of “God’s” desire for us. His purpose for us is so much greater than we could ever imagine for ourselves.

What is the point of living without a purpose? We are going through the motions of a life, but it is empty and unfulfilling. Purpose gives us direction and motivation. Why do we get up in the mornings? God has created the world and mankind with a specific purpose in mind. In fact, He does nothing without a purpose. Finding our purpose gives us a reason for getting up every day, going through the mundane of life, and gives us something to which we can attach our faith, will and determination. Why are we here? What does God want us to do and be in the earth? It is always greater than just the natural life that we live. It is greater than what we think we can do or see within ourselves. God sees beyond the natural and knows the reason He created us and sent us into this earth. Finding our purpose and surrendering to it takes us through the developmental process. It empowers us to run the race and to go the distance until we arrive at our destination.

Former first lady Barbara Pierce Bush passed away recently. One of the best things I heard about her, and there were many, was that she believed you should live with a purpose. When asked to attend certain events or speak at various gatherings, she would ask “for what purpose” before she would accept the engagement. We should be asking the same regarding all that we do in this life. Purpose is a powerful, guiding force. It gets you up in the morning, carries you when you would rather not go, and leaves you with a legacy of knowing that you made a difference in this life and the hereafter.

We can’t ever discount the power of God’s purpose in our lives. Purpose can be greater than faith because it was initiated by God even before we ever came into the earth and were given our “measure of faith.” Belief, faith and confidence in God’s purpose for us are more important than the amount of faith we have. God is always working behind the scenes to put the pieces in place in our lives to bring about His purpose for us. When we are in a season of trials and our faith seems weak, God is still working according to His purpose for us. If our faith doesn’t give us what we are seeking, we need to be still and trust Him completely and know that something greater is being worked out in our lives. Not only must we have faith, but a “purpose to serve.”

Regardless of what we are going through, remember that Romans 8:28 (AmpC) says: “We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose.” This scripture gives us such assurance that He is our Sovereign God who is in control, that we are called according to His purpose, and that He works ALL things for our good and His glory as we walk the “walk of faith” on this earth.

The timing of God is connected to the purpose of God. He orders our steps and controls our times. So our submission to His Sovereignty can give us a peace and relieve the daily struggle with which we wrestle so often. It can eliminate the questions of “Why God? When God? How God?” May He bring us into that place of personal surrender which leads to peace. Ecclesiastes 3:11 (AmpC), “He has made everything beautiful in its time. He also has planted eternity in men’s hearts and minds [a divinely implanted sense of a purpose working through the ages which nothing under the sun but God alone can satisfy], yet so that men cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.”

Ecclesiastes 3:1 (KJV) says, “To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven.” As Psalm 31:15 tells us, “our times are in His hands.” There is a time for the fulfillment of His ultimate purpose for our lives but there are incremental fulfillments of His purpose in every situation we face. Ecclesiastes 8:6 (AmpC), “For every purpose and matter has its [right] time and judgment….” If we can learn to trust Him in all things, we can enter into a rest that “He hath done all things well.” (Mark 7:37)

Proverbs 19:21 (Amp) says: “Many plans are in a man’s mind, but it is the Lord’s purpose for him that will stand (be carried out).”

Ephesians 1:12 (AmpC), “So that we who first hoped in Christ [who first put our confidence in Him have been destined and appointed to] live for the praise of His glory!” I believe we are all called to live out this scripture in every purpose in which we are involved. Is there a greater purpose than this?

In the end, this scripture in Ephesians 2:10 (TPT) will be our testimony: “We have become his poetry, a re-created people that will fulfill the destiny he has given each of us, for we are joined to Jesus, the Anointed One. Even before we were born, God planned in advance our destiny and the good works we would do to fulfill it! Amen!

Blessings to you all.


#11

More evidence for the idea of Jesus being both the object of faith and also the source of faith:

Galatians 3:22-25 Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)

22 but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing.

23 And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed,

24 so that the law became our child-conductor – to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous,

25 and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we.

Faith (Jesus) coming as a gift? Or, opportunity to place our faith (in Jesus) coming? Or both?


#12

Dear Hermano: Both. There are many dwelling places in Father’s House, and in that House manifold dimensions of glory. The faith of the Author & Finisher of faith is the cornerstone for the coming of “the faith” into us who follow the Lamb. May His exceeding love & grace be yours again today!


#13

FL, If Jesus emptied Himself of all that made Him equal/one/ united with God, then this means He emptied Himself of love, compassion, forgiveness etc. and would not have been walking in obedience to God. On the contrary, He emptied Himself of the vain pursuits of the world, beliefs in the false doctrines of men etc,etc, to be filled with the Holy Spirit of God.


#14

?? For THAT to be true would mean He was already carrying those very things you say He emptied Himself thereof… ??


#15

Dear L: In French, au contraire.

Jesus Christ emptied himself of that which “made Him equal with God.”, He “became flesh”, he learned obedience", he pioneered faith as the A & E . The entire process was one of absolute faith from beginning to end.

The end= “Father glorify me with the glory I had with You before the world was.”


#16

" ?? For THAT to be true would mean He was already carrying those very things you say He emptied Himself thereof… ??"

Dear Davo from Down Under: Bingo!


#17

Davo, I’m not understanding your response.

From what I understand, being “equal with God” means you are one in the Spirit, united with God, holy, righteous, made in His image, sinless. If Jesus emptied Himself of all that “made Him equal with God”, then He was no longer sinless or = with God(sinless) as you say here:

In which case He would have had to empty Himself of His futile human ways to become one with God in the Spirit or = with God.


#18

Dear Davo: Jesus Christ is the Last Adam. The 1st Adam failed on a scale that landed all of us into the mess we find ourselves “being made sinners” as per Rom 5. The Last Adam, the Master from the Glory took that same mass, the polus, into the all the more dimension of “being made righteous.”

What I am attempting to say is the indications are the Lord of Glory accomplished on the plateau of failure by Adam1, VICTORY, not as God, but as a man of faith living in total reliance upon his Father from whence he came, not as God, not as the God man, the perfect Last Adam. He learned obedience & that perfect obedience ultimately raises the broken masses back to the Lord.

The first Adam failed>>>>The Last Adam prevailed!


#19

His idea, all of it!

"Now God has us where he wants us, with all the time in this world and the next to shower grace and kindness upon us in Christ Jesus.

Saving is all his idea, and all his work.

All we do is trust him enough to let him do it.

It’s God’s gift from start to finish!

We don’t play the major role. If we did, we’d probably go around bragging that we’d done the whole thing!

No, we neither make nor save ourselves.

God does both the making and saving.

He creates each of us by Christ Jesus to join him in the work he does, the good work he has gotten ready for us to do, work we had better be doing." -The Message-

https://www.biblestudytools.com/ephesians/2-8-compare.html


#20

So, how does that work out?