The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What Is Heaven Like?

Theology Eschatology
#21

Stella, your comments are very insightful. It’s unrealistic to expect the beggar on the streets of Calcutta to “cry out” to a God he probably doesn’t know exists. Most likely, that beggar doesn’t have the slightest inkling of how much God loves and cares about him.

The argument just doesn’t hold water that God will seek out the beggar and present him with the gospel message during this lifetime if the beggar truly wants to know God. This is not a biblical teaching, and it certainly doesn’t square with reality.

The ones who be judged in the next life most harshly will not be the beggars from Calcutta, who for obvious reasons never became Chrsitians during their lifetimes, but the Christians who failed to show kindness and concern for the beggar. That is biblical (see Matt. 25).

I do believe that in God’s timing, most likely not in this lifetime, but the next, the beggar will come face to face with Jesus, and God will awaken in him a love for Christ and will welcome him into the kingdom. The roles may be reversed as in the case of the theologically correct “rich man” and the “beggar” who ate the crumbs from his table in Jesus well-known parable.

#22

Richard

The beggar does not know God exits? Lets see what the Word of God says:

Romans 1:20 “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

Richard, God says everyone knows there is a God by simply looking at creation itself…the excuse not knowing there is a God won’t fly at judgment day according to scripture.

God bless,
Aaron

#23

Aaron, they may have some notion of a “higher power” but have not been exposed to to specific gospel information, which you seem to think is required for salvation. The Apostle Paul in Romans 1 & 2 says otherwise.

#24

Richard

Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. That name is Jesus!

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me. John14:6

God bless,
Aaron

#25

Neither of those verses in any way, shape or form, imply that a person have specific gospel information to be saved.

Is Jesus just a name to you, or do you believe that He is an almighty power in the universe moving and changing things in ways that we can’t even see?

Also, amen Richard. Amen.

#26

Stellar

Jesus is the Gospel! I hope you know that or maybe you don’t. Those verses say if you want to be saved…it only comes through Jesus. The Gospel is the good news of Jesus. No Jesus, No Salvation…Period.

God bless,
Aaron

#27

Stellar

You don’t want to contribute any meaningful scriptural conversation, you just want to eavesdrop on everything I say to disagree with it regardless if I’m speaking truth. You just want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

God bless,
Aaron

#28

Stella, what have you been saying that has got Aaron’s panties in such a bunch? Just kidding. Appreciated your comments.

Love you both,

Richard

#29

Very well, Aaron:

When scripture speaks of Jesus’ “name” it means his “nature” or “character.” For one, anyone could speak his name and claim to come in his power. Many will say this and yet the Lord will tell them, “Go away from me, for I do not know you.” (Matthew 7:21-23)

To say that it’s Jesus’ name (as defined by our modern culture) ALONE that has the power is EXTREMELY superficial. There is SO MUCH MORE to Jesus than just the letters J-E-S-U-S!

Romans 11
33 *Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out! *
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?”
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

It’s Jesus’ name, yes, but also His POWER, His GLORY, His MIRACULOUS MINISTRY, His MIGHTY ACTS, and most of all, His ALMIGHTY LOVE, that hold salvation for everyone.

When Jesus told His disciples that He was the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE, it was just shortly before He was going to die, right after a glorious yet mysterious ministry that continually confounded His followers and brought them to the end of themselves and caused them to become intimately familiar with this elusive supernatural person who had become their close and personal friend.

Therefore, these are probably some of the most personal, and intimate words, that Jesus ever spoke. These are not words that you would just pass out like skittles to a beggar on the street because they would not fully understand them. They don’t know Jesus. It takes knowing Jesus to know the Father. But a person has to get to know HIM first, and not just in name, or in a handshake. They have to know Him INTIMATELY before they can come to understand who the Father is - and there are many, many more aspects to Him than just His “name” - that is, the letters that compose the word “Jesus”.

And many of these things can, yes, be understood without ever having heard of the historical Jesus. To be sure, knowing about the historical Jesus is the quickest and most effective way to learn them, and will be surer to keep you from falling into the many pitfalls of worldly and childish philosophy - but there are MANY lives, no doubt, whom Jesus has affected without them having ever heard of his earthly ministry.

And, when Peter said those words, he was full of the Spirit and by NO MEANS meant that the letters that made up that name in and of themselves could effect powerful change in anyone’s life. He knew full well - and his audience, within earshot of an entire movement of people speaking strange languages knew full well - that he was referring to something beyond ordinary experience. He meant the person Himself, not just His name. The name refers to the person Himself.

And you can’t just read an inspired book without being inspired. The Holy Spirit Himself must reveal its depths to you -

“Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.”
Luke 24:45

"They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
Luke 24:32

#30

Stellar, you have wisdom beyond your years.

Bless you,

Richard

#31

Stellar,

Your approach to the Scriptures is good. “Proof-texting” gets us nowhere. You can make the Bible appear to support almost any doctrine by citing so-called “proof texts” which are subject to multiple interpretations. The best approach, in my view, is to view the scriptures as a whole, and seek interpretations of individual passages which harmonize with the big picture. Here’s a link to an article which expresses in more detail my views in this regard. It helps explain why we are getting nowhere with Aaron. And, really, that’s OK. He’s entitled to his views and they work for him.

heavenandhellpage.com/prooftexts.html

Blessings,

Richard

#32

Thanks, Richard. It comes from a lifetime of failures and successes, of learning from church history and personal experiences and a father who had a rich repository of wisdom himself, and preachers and intense bible studiers on both sides of the family.

It all has to come out sometime. haha. When I keep it inside, it’s like, “a fire shut up in my bones” ~Isaiah.

Thanks for the kind words.

Justin

#33

Stella,

You said a whole lot to preach the simple gospel. I prefer less rationalization. Keep it simple, Stella… Just stick with Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection for eternal life available to anyone who accesses this grace by their faith. And after or before you preach the gospel…go demonstrate the gospel on some people who are sick ( Lay hands on the sick and watch them recover, cast out devils in Jesus name, etc) that will get their attention, don’t ya think? ( Mark 16:15-20) Praise God.

Btw, The name Jesus is a transliteration of the Hebrew “Joshua” (which is why you find Him occasionally referred to as Yeshua by people of Jewish background who have become Christians).

The Hebrew word Joshua means ‘Jehovah is salvation’, hence the meaning of Jesus name savior.

God bless,
Aaron

#34

Richard

The reason you are not getting anywhere with me (as you say) is because I let man made religion go, and I refuse to be entangled in it again.

God bless,
Aaron

#35

Stella

Hey, I noticed you left out the only true teacher that true wisdom flows from… The Holy Spirit. You mention yourself, your father, preachers and bible studiers…how about the Comforter the Father sent to us to lead and guide us into all truth? I don’t see you mentioning Him…scary.

God bless,
Aaron

#36

StellaR. StellaR!

I’m not a girl, thanks. haha.

And just because I didn’t list the Spirit, in no way, shape or form, says that the Spirit hasn’t guided me. I was merely listing the channels that He used. I didn’t just list Him alongside, because He transcends all of those, and uses them as vessels. You are right though, it would’ve been helpful, and thankful and praisworthy toward Him, to do so, so thank you for pointing that out.

Obviously you don’t really even understand where I am coming from, so I will lay it out the best way I can:

Even those who have never heard of Jesus Christ, or have heard a very twisted version of the gospel message, may be saved even though they haven’t accepted the message.

And many, very very many in fact, of those who have “accepted” the message will suffer a rude awakening in the scalding fires of hell. As illustrated by Jesus himself.

Remember, the sheep and the goats will not be separated by who accepted a message or not, but by who helped and relieved the poor, oppressed, jailed, hungry and thirsty, and those who did not.

Have you done all you can to help the poor and oppressed and jailed, and hungry and thirsty? If not, then you are eternally damned. And if you have done so in truth, then welcome to the kingdom of God.

That’s the gospel.

Justin

#37

Justin

you said: Even those who have never heard of Jesus Christ, or have heard a very twisted version of the gospel message, may be saved even though they haven’t accepted the message.

Aaron: No, that contradicts justification by faith. Justin it is not possible to be saved without accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. You must access God’s grace with your faith to partake of salvation…You must tap into God’s grace with your faith to receive salvation…it does not come any other way, brother.

Justin helping the poor, hungry and thirsty are acts we do out of compassion for the less fortunate… Unbelievers can help the poor and hungry (and do)…Helping the poor is not the gospel, but we can use it to preach the gospel, but it is not the gospel itself.

The gospel is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ unto salvation for whosoever believes. Preaching and demonstrating the gospel is a command from Jesus in (Mark 16:15-20)

Mark 16:16 He that believeth not shall be damned!

God bless,
Aaron

#38

Well, you have clearly gone against scripture, then, and declared Jesus to be wrong. I didn’t actually think you would have the cojones to do that as boldly and obviously as you did, but of course you have.

Reminds me of the story that I heard preached in a sermon recently… Mark Driscoll said that he encountered a highly religious person who told him that drinking was wrong. Mark asked, Then why did Jesus not only drink himself, but fuel a whole wedding party with alcohol? The guy said, Well either it was grape juice or He was wrong!

The point is that overly zealous religious folk can be very bold, and even pronounce Jesus to be wrong, as clear as day. They set themselves up as superior judges to God and act like they are more than omniscient.

Aaron, I can’t believe you have just declared Jesus to be wrong, but I’ve seen it with my own two eyes.

Faith comes by hearing, but faith is not hearing alone. You have to actually do something with your faith.

"If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

James 2:16-18

Or do you disagree with James, too? Just like Martin Luther did.

I bet you don’t even know for sure, you confused son of a gun.

I’m sorry you’re in such a state. Maybe someday you will open your eyes and see Jesus Christ for who He truly is.

Good day to you.

Justin

#39

Aaron,

How do you reconcile the following two verses (paraphrased)?

If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved

AND

Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord

#40

Justin

I’m sorry you feel that way, but I can assure you the true gospel of Jesus Christ is found in Mark 16:15-20.

you said : Faith comes by hearing, but faith is not hearing alone. You have to actually do something with your faith.

Aaron: Again, as I said before, go lay hands on the sick and watch them recover in Jesus name…cast out devils in Jesus name…raise the dead in Jesus name…freely give as you have freely received, Justin. ( Matt 10:7-8; Mark 16:15-20) This is what Jesus commanded us to do, go ahead, and read Mark 16:15-20 for yourself.

James was referring to faith without works is dead. In other words, if you claim Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and your life does not line up with your proclamation… your faith is false and useless. Your works are a byproduct of your faith.

Good day to you, as well, and God bless,
Aaron