The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What is justification and why is it necessary?


Definitely a part of what Paul was saying, but maybe not the whole picture. It’s very clear in Romans at least that Paul was anxious to go back to the covenant with Abraham, the the entire world was included. The Jews were to be the vehicle of that blessing - the undoing of Adam’s sin and even more - but they failed, and the Messiah accomplished what they did not - reconciliation of the entire world.
One of the main points Paul strives to make is that, in a mixed congregation in Rome, Jews and gentiles together, there is one God and one Lord making of the ‘mix’ ONE body in Christ.
The 70 a.d. thing, while important, did not bring an end to that truth - of the one body, the work of Jesus - that is still part of the Gospel today and will continue to be.
Am I right, or am I right? :smiley:


The fact that you are bringing up the subject is interesting. My view of the scriptures is that first of all, the OT was what it was. A guide post to what Israel was supposed to do and be. God separated a chosen people from all the nations and gave them a place in his heart. He made proclamations and laws and promises that he not only wanted to be followed, but if not there were dyer consequences…

Thus we come to the as you say …70AD thing…

The overwhelming view of the prophets is that if Israel did not turn from their ways, than there would be ‘HELL TO PAY’ :open_mouth:

You said:

Absolutely! And if we believe the promise that was given to Abraham that all the nations will be blessed by what God did for Israel, we will rejoice that the separation between God and man has been taken care of. It is done.

And either we see it as a done deal or we will continue to wallow in a quagmire of maybe hope/ possilbly might be yada yada… :laughing:


I think we are all grateful for what God did through Jesus’ life, death and resurrection.


Peace brother. BTW I am in the process of moving at some point. Just sold my beloved JBL studio monitors and it is sad… I bought them in 1979 and they are the only reference to the world of audio that I have known. Now I will have to learn again. :astonished:


Nooooooooo… :open_mouth:


Big and bulky and will not fit in a condo with the needed PWR AMP.

Gotta slim down. Not a good deal.


Which is not clear to me if faith doesn’t justify a person. Which atonement model do you subscribe to?


My atonement model is that Jesus totally took care of all of the problems between God and man… We have nothing to do but to grab the reigns and conquer the world :laughing:


Chad - we are getting close to the burning question: What about the problems IN men?


MM, No judgment or condemnation intended. :wink:
According to John:
1John 2:3 “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him” and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.”
1John 3:4 “Let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.”
1John 3:24 “Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him and He in him.”
1John4:8 “He who does not love, does not know God, for God is love.”
1John 4:12 “If we love one another God abides in us, and his love has been perfected in us.”
1John 4:21 “And this is the commandment we have from Him that he who loves God must love his brother.”
1John5:3 'for this is the love of God that we keep his commandments."

As Romans 6:16 says “Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey whether you are slaves to sin leading to death or to obedience leading to righteousness. But thanks be to God that though you were once slaves to sin you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed.”

Yes I do look at history, and it repeats itself.
As 2 Peter 2:18-22 says:"For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through licentiousness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandments delivered to them. But it happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit and a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”


Yes, Yes, that is the question. In my view, we hob knob over the fact that we are given a great measure of free agency, and as LLC points out, our life, and this is just my opinion, is going to be much better by learning about Jesus, His recommendations and examples followed… But having said that, there is a wide disconnect between the fundamentalist churches understanding about ‘the problems IN men’ and what they say is the remedy.

We as a human race, are figuring things out at a staggering rate. I don’t think that it is by accident. And the church(s) are changing at an equally staggering rate.

The old guard is waiting for Jesus to return and fix the problems IN men. They come to know a Jesus that may well come at any time and take their sorrows away. Many Christians are waiting for a utopian garden of Eden. When that seems like it may not happen or if something huge happens in life, many believers will ask why Lord? And many fall away from the faith that they have been told will rescue them.

I tend to believe that Jesus already Came and His part is done. He has brought man and God back together. Part of the free agency we are given also includes the tools and ability to pinpoint and solve the problems we are talking about. Either way the glory goes to him. I’m happy to somehow have been involved with and know the creator.

Just my .02 worth.

BTW, LLC, your point is noted :wink:


DaveB, I think this is why we die and are born again. It is a cycle, the circle of life. As Genesis 8:22 says, As long as the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night shall not cease."

MM, I think if man has his way, we will all be genetically engineered robot people. Scary! :laughing:


I feel like it is important to learn what God has done through Christ and in Christ (there is a difference, I think), and preterists and others rightly point to many of those things.

What God has freely done by grace (undeserved Love) does not entail that all people are ‘saved’ or filled with the Spirit - obviously - and if they are not, they are not ‘sons of God’ in that sense. We who lived in the 20th century know for certain what happens when people are not led by the Holy Spirit, yes?

“All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

That portion I bolded points to what the job of Christ’s ambassadors IS. To show by our lives, preaching, anyway we can, what God has done in Christ and imploring people TO BE reconciled - that is, they have to do something. If they don’t, then they have not reconciled themselves to God, even though God has reconciled the world to Himself.

That imploring reaches to us today.


I subscribe to the Evangelical and Catholic newsletters at This story came from the Evangelical newsletter. And it’s an update, from one of Christ’s parables. Let me quote a bit - for reflection,

The Parable of the Good Muslim

Just a footnote here. If the man in the parable, ever makes it to Huston, Texas USA…Then he can visit the church, of TV evangelist Joel Osteen. :laughing:


Good for him!


LLC said

Could be or maybe we are what God the Father envisioned ? Have a little faith LLC! :wink:


MM, I believe there were some civilizations in the past that were highly intelligent, probably even more so than we are today. But, such knowledge can be used for both the good and the bad. I think I’ll pass when it comes to the chip in the brain. :laughing:


Chip in the brain, other civilizations, where did these come from? :open_mouth:


My personal opinion is justification is being declared righteous by Christs faith and righteousness. The free gift of Grace given to all those forechosen to believe the death,burial,and resurrection of Christ. Apart from our own works designated to us. And this is why we walk by faith of Christ instead of perception of ourselves.

This I believe was the radicalism of Paul. Part of the mystery revealed to Him. That it is by Grace, not works lest it cease to be Grace.

And good works are not a condition to Grace and are not of ourselves but are a byproduct of God’s grace upon you, working His good will through you. “…but more abundantly did I labor, yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me” (1 Corinthians 15:10 )

Or in other words justification is being declared righteous in the eyes of God by Christs faith and works. And you are a catalyst for the good works that follow, not the source. Nor is works a condition upon receiving Grace.

The horse (Grace) needs to be put before the cart (works) and a horse without a cart is still a horse. And God is the one who hitches the cart to the horse.


@Reconciliation what’s your atonement model?