The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What is justification and why is it necessary?


I usually see things, ACCORDING TO ANCIENT WAYS OF UNDERSTANDING. A better word for this is WISDOM TRADITION.

God gave the ancient Jews, the words of the Old Testament. But he also gave revelations to Native Americans, in the forms of visions. And they have ancient ways, of ceremony and healing (see Red Road Christianity).
The Eastern Orthodox, divide things into God’s essence and energies. And I believe that Native Americans, German healer Bruno Groening and Japanese light modalities like Johrei…learn how to tap into God’s energies - for healing purposes.
The ancient Buddist and Yoga traditions, give us ways of silent contemplation.
The healing modalities of Ayurveda, Homeopathy and Traditional Chinese Medicine, give us ways of staying healthy.
The Eastern Orthodox give us a Christian theology - unchanged (more or less), since the time of Christ.

Well, since I normally side with Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. Here’s what they have to say.

What Do Orthodox Christians Believe about Justification? A Response to Protestant Criticisms
How Are We Saved?

I just put on the EO glasses…or the Wisdom Tradition glasses…and I am good to go.

Sure. I like to hear the logical arguments, of folks like Davo, Paidion, Jason, Cindy or the Calvinist site Got Questions. Or the RC folks on EWTN TV. And how the ACNA priests, at the Anglican church I go to - see things. Or if TV evangelist Joel Osteen - has a particular spin.

But I normally wear the glasses, of the old ways - for the longest time… It reminds me of a song. :laughing:



So how many sins can a person commit and still live a “consistently righteous life”, and how did you discover that number? How did you learn that unbelievers always sin more than the “consistently righteous life” limit?


I’m not sure that thinking of it in terms of ‘numbers’ is as fruitful as thinking of it in terms of ‘direction’ - what is the general direction of life that we choose to live? God is the judge of that, in the end; and we often, in our troubles, are not good judges of what we are doing in good will and what we are really just hiding from being responsible for.

But we can see, over time, what path we have chosen, mostly. And I think time matters. As someone pointed out, if you see two climbers on a trail standing and talking to one another, you can’t tell, until they move, which one is ascending, which one is descending, or if they are in tandem.

At a given moment, I am deeply given over to love for God and thankfulness; I hope for those moments to become much more frequent as I learn to be led more and more by the Holy Spirit; and there are other given moments when I am not progressing. But I do not consider a lapse to undue the work God has done in me. And lapses there are a-plenty, but I do sense that the journey has been toward God.


So Jesus’s resurrection justifies people by making it possible for people to perform good-but-not-sinless works? But people performed such works prior to Jesus’s resurrection, and unbelievers still do today. You guys seem to be saying that a person is righteous if his works are weighed on a metaphorical scale, and his good works outweigh his sins. It seems arbitrary to me that a person’s good-but-not-perfect works can pass the threshold into good enough for justification if and only if Jesus resurrected and the person believes it.


No, that’s not what we’re saying. But we’ve said it a dozen times, I think that’s enough for me.
Good fortune to you on your quest for …???


He might be looking, for the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse. Remember the song - follow the yellow brick road? Just change the title to


In the meantime…as a public service to this forum…I present the following, recent science article: :smiley:

Here’s How To Survive A Zombie Apocalypse, According To Science


Perhaps you and paidion are not arguing the same thing. I feel like I accurately represented paidion’s view of the role Jesus’s resurrection plays in justifying people.


You are espousing the epitome of what in my opinion is the overwhelming evangelical mindset. :laughing:

Dave you said:

How does that look, how does that work? What does that entail? If so much of our spiritual (or after) life may be hinged on that, I am seriously wanting to know what it is and how you think giving an account of himself is relevant? Will it be before we die, will it be after, does it really matter? It may not. :smiley: Now I realize that you may counter with ‘I did not say that my justification hinged on that’ but the end story is that most of us who were raised in evangelical surroundings were exposed to the very scenario that qaz posted above.

Just a thought.

Love you Bro! :wink:


It’s what scripture says, Chad. You know as much as I do how that will work out. Be that as it may, it sure seems prudent at this juncture to be ready. Paul is very clear:

So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad. Therefore, since we know what it means to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is clear to God, and I hope it is clear to your conscience as well.…

So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop judging one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.…




Dave, you said I misrepresented your argument. Please explain the difference between your position on how Christ’s resurrection justifies people and what I described as your (and paidion’s) position.


No. I’m tired of the discussion. You point out the differences, maybe someone will get interested,


CORRECT! Including the mindset of the evangelist Paul of Tarsus!


The “account of himself to God” in question was relative to rewards given or lost (1Cor 3:13-15)… and most likely pertinent to the firstfruit saint of that period AD30-70 aka… “the church of the firstborn ones” (Heb 12:23). That that principle may carry past that point… well maybe.


Would be kinda important to know that, maybe?

That 'most likely…70AD ’ - well since God shows no partiality, maybe 2018 AD as well.


To infinity and beyond… you just never know. :smiley:


DaveB wrote:

LLC wrote: so who in hell is going to make that assessment?

DaveB, Just wanted to let you know that I did not writ the above quote. I think it came fro MM. :wink:

MM, if you are not obeying the Law of Christ, in other words “in Christ”, you are still in your sin. Jesus showed unconditional/ agape love to all men, and if we do not do the same, there will be no peace or reconciliation. We will only continue in conflict and strife. Those who serve the one true God must follow the Golden Rule or they are not accurately representing God.

Davo, I disagree. The Spirit is not passed down genetically/ biologically ( as in royal blood, evolution).It is passed on through the Spirit. If sin begets sin through the spirit and works of those who sin, then it is only logical to say that those of the Spirit of God, in doing His work, will give birth to the Spirit, and it will spread as in the parable of the leavened bread.


I’m glad you disagree because I definitely wasn’t saying anything like what you just posited. And congratulations on giving birth to the Spirit — well done! :unamused:


To the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse - you just never know. :wink:


LLC said:

There is both judgment and condemnation in your statement that if we all don’t see it as you do we are… going to continue in conflict and strife? The very fact that we are all on a forum like this would I believe be an indicator that said person or persons had at least a bit of wonder and thought and questions about God’s love.

By gosh if we obey or don’t obey. Christ still accomplished the deed he was sent to do, and that was to open an avenue for the fist century Jews to understand that their God did indeed loved them and so sent His only son to try to get them to figure the crap out. LLC, ya gotta look at history. :wink: