The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What makes you think people would want to repent in Hell?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

With few scripture references we have of people actually experiencing hell or hell on earth experiences…what were their attitudes? Did they cry out to God for mercy and repent? Does heat and fire really change a man’s heart? What does scripture say about this?

Luke 16:23-25
The Richman showed arrogance instead of a repentant heart being tormented in the flames of hell.

Rev 16:9
Men were scorched with great heat and instead of crying out to God for mercy they blasphemed the name of God and repented not to give him glory.

You would think plague after plague, destruction after destruction…you would think sooner or later they would catch on and somebody would call upon the name of the Lord… yet instead they blaspheme the name of God. Now some do get saved during this time period in Revelation, but most of the people will have seared their conscience as displayed in Rev 16:9 and Luke 16:23-25.

What would lead you to believe after reading these verses that everyone would want to call upon the name of the Lord after being in hell or the lake of fire?

#2

I sympathize with this, because I believed it for such a long time. Yes, it is certainly conceivable that men could essentially rebel for eternity (though your proof-texts certainly don’t show that). But I believe we have abundant evidence that reveals that "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess/praise to Yahweh” in the consummation of the ages. People who are in eternal rebellion simply do not bend their knee and offer their praises. Israel, Egypt, Assyria, Moab (and so forth) all endured a “hell on earth” experience unlike any other and they did indeed lament and curse Yahweh at that time. But we know that one day, they will repent and find restoration in Christ. It is then reasonable to conclude that the Lake of Fire (as God’s final purging of sin) will be wholly effective for that purgatory (torment/testing, fire/refinement, brimstone/bleaching – of which we discussed earlier).

#3

It really boils down (ooh, did I say boils?) to what we mean by hell. If it is merely a place of punishment, a vindictive god’s cauldron for those who didn’t do what was necessary to avoid that place, I can see how there would be recalcitrant hearts there who would refuse to surrender their, um, free wills. (Amazing that they had enough free will to reject Christ, but no free will to repent and reconsider and get the “hell” out of that infernal place upon realizing that they had erred and genuinely felt sorrowful for having resisted God’s love.) On the other hand, if we are actually referring to a purifying “fire,” a place where souls are purged of all that is contrary to the love of God, where correction is taking place–no matter how long it takes–the kind of correction which would regenerate and lead to remarkable, grateful godliness, why would genuine repentance in “hell” be so difficult to comprehend?

David

#4

That is a parable, not literal.

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Now how could the rich man be in actual fire and talk and think so clearly? If one was truly being burned by flames, one would only be able to let out terrifying, horrifying blood curdling screams to where no words would even be able to form.
And it says he lifted up his head. Lifted his head? in what, flames of fire? And he wanted Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue. Yeah, and clearly that would be enough to cook down the flames of a real fire.

All this makes no sense whatsoever for it to be literal fire.

Jesus spoke in parables. This is a parable. This is not a literal story about someone truly in hell burning away.

#5

I agree. :slight_smile:

#6

I don’t think anyone has that belief because everyone has been granted (by grace alone) the free will to repent. (I differ on the “by grace alone” part with Revival though. As a Pelagian of some sort, he goes where I dare not tread – i.e. traditional heresy). But I think Revival is saying, as I would to an extent, that it is not necessarily inevitable that one would repent within the free-will they do have. Its not impossible that one could reject Christ eternally – statistically improbable perhaps, but not necessarily inevitable.

#7

Excellent points, Caroleem. Yes, Jesus often incorporated imagery that his listeners would find relatable (e.g., mustard seed, debts, pricy pearl, prodigal son, leaven in a lump, seeds taking root or being scorched by the sun, etc., children playing, sheep, goats, wheat, tares, a widow’s mite, etc.; however, Scripture is very clear in revealing that He spoke in parables, attempting to convey a greater kingdom principle via graphic, metaphorical illustrations, almost the way a painter, poet, or songwriter would. Therefore, it isn’t much of a stretch to consider the metaphorical license in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Besides, how in the world would someone in a literal hellfire be able to call out to “Father Abraham” with such ease?

David

#8

Here’s Luke 16:23-25:

Why do you say these things Revival?
Why do you repeatedly make claims and give scriptures to ‘support’ them, when, in fact, the scriptures do nothing of the kind?
What is it that drives you?

The truth is that the scriptures clearly show that, whilst being tormented by flames, the rich man displayed a compassion for others which was absent in his lifetime.

#9

Even further than that the Rich man begged for Abraham to warn his family so they would not come to that place of flame. How does this show arrogance? It shows compassion, it shows that he had more compassion than Lazarus!

#10

why would people want to repent in hell?
i dunno…the weather?
the lack of any decent coffee? (apparently it’s always served too cold in hell)

though here’s a guy that seems happy enough

#11

  1. "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess/praise to Yahweh” happens at the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15. (Rom 14:11-12)

  2. Based on what we see recorded in scripture ( not what we think) we do not see everyone calling on the name of the Lord after experiencing plague after plague, disaster after disaster, and being tormented in the flames of hell… only seared conscience blasphemy of the name of God and no thought of repentance.

#12

The point of the post is that fire and heat does not necessarily change ones heart regardless where or how you think it is applied. Heat is heat. Fire is fire.

#13

What does that even mean Revival? They won’t repent – but they will bow their knee and praise Him?

#14

How many other parables does Jesus use real names of people who once lived? Do you think Jesus is telling a camp fire scary story and at the end he says “This is not literal guys…just trying to scare you.” Jesus taught a spiritual truth of where you go when you physically die and used real people as an example of where they ended up. Jesus used natural analogies to teach spiritual truth in every parable he taught.

#15

Jesus had a mate named Lazarus. but Lazarus was not poor, and was not picked on by the rich. Lazarus and his sisters were well enough off to have a place to live. therefore the Lazarus in this PARABLE is not the literal Lazarus.
there’s no evidence anywhere that these people were real in His stories. on the contrary, we are told that He used parables to teach truths.
this one lampooned the current Pharisaical views on the nature of wealth and righteousness. He added the caution at the end that if they’d paid attention to Moses and the Prophets that they’d understand what He was on about.

#16

It means what scripture always said it meant “every knee bowing and every tongue confessing” happens at the final judgment and is not unto salvation because the judgment is not an alter call but an individual judgment of ones life. This bowing and confessing are one of reverence and acknowledging authority. Can you imagine how holy and powerful it will be to stand in front of God at final judgment? Especially if you are an unbeliever? Our finite minds can’t wrap around that, friend.

#17

and who standing in that infinite tide of love (1 John 4:8) could fail to have his or her heart broken in true repentence and desire for reconciliation? love wins souls…fear never has.

#18

Corpselight

Different Lazarus, mate. This Lazarus was a beggar who laid at the gate, full of sores desiring to be fed with the crumbs. Luke 16:20-21.

#19
  1. The Richmans arrogance was displayed by asking Abraham to send Lazarus to cool his tongue.( same view of Lazarus when he was alive… being his servant and being beneath him)
  2. He cried out to Abraham and not to God. He had no thought of repenting to the only one that could save him.
  3. Yes, he did not want his brothers to come where he was but the fact he had an unrepentant heart being tormented in flames is undeniable.
#20

yes, that’s exactly what i said. so how do you figure the Lazarus in the parable was a real person?