Well said, David!
Sonia
I agree - your sig says it all David.
I must say that if Heaven and Hell are literally as described as in the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, I’m not sure I want to go. Front row seats for the everlasting, irredeemable, unceasing torments of the damned as they gasp and scream, crying out for a drop of water? Are we to assume we’d enjoy that view? Is our fully redeemed state really going to be that sadistic? If it isn’t a parable, if Jesus’ purpose in telling the story was to impart actual information about the nature of the afterlife, perhaps the biggest problem isn’t that Hell is a scarier prospect as a result; it’s that Heaven becomes nothing less than a carnival of horrors.
Well said snitzelhoff. We would be pretty sick individuals if we enjoyed that kind of entertainment. God would be pretty sick too 
Great emotional story, David, but unfortunately the universal reconciliation does not extend past the grave into hell or the lake of fire…and emotional rhetoric does not change this. Absolutley ZERO scripture evidence of this happening. Well we know that it certainly does not extend into hell because those people are judged at the FINAL judgment and thrown into the LOF. So the focus is on after the judgment with the people who are in the LOF.
Some people say it doesn’t matter if there is ZERO evidence of this happening… they know it just mysteriously happens some how. They are emotionally all in whether its recorded scripturally or not. 
What we see in scripture is that fire and heat do not necessarily drive men to repentance and it certainly does not change the nature of who they are. Faith for salvation comes by hearing and by the hearing of the word of God not by fire and heat. 
Where do you see evidence of reconciliation being extended to the people in the lake of fire?
First, this picture was where the OT saints were held before the cross. It is no longer set up that way. Receiving salvation in the OT was not the same as it is today. No more front row seats to the carnival of horrors.
Second, What you and other UR’s don’t seem to understand is that God is not asking your opinion of what you think Heaven and Hell should be like. God’s word is not up to vote on to change it. God’s word is forever settled in heaven and will not change whether you agree with what you read or not.
Listen, I do not take pleasure knowing where some of my dead friends and family are right now. It makes my stomach turn. But they willfully chose to reject God’s plan of salvation and there are consequences to that. But that doesn’t change what has been established in the word of God. I don’t think we fully grasp in our finite minds how bad sin and the spiritual death nature really are to God.
First, this picture was where the OT saints were held before the cross. It is no longer set up that way. No more front row seats to the carnival of horrors.
So then we don’t get any information about the afterlife from this parable that’s relevant to the discussion, even if it IS literal? Well, then, no need to even mention it.
Second, What you and other UR’s don’t seem to understand is that God is not asking your opinion of what you think Heaven and Hell should be like. God’s word is not up to vote on to change it. God’s word is forever settled in heaven and will not change whether you agree with what you read or not.
I understand that perfectly. The Kingdom is not a democracy. Imagine my relief, the overwhelming love for God that welled up when what I read was not what I’d been taught! 
I pray one day, you won’t have to imagine. When the whispers of the Spirit of the God-Who-Is-Love finally overtake the prattle of bad theology, when the Song of God’s redemption finally makes it from the Word to our stubborn ears, it’s terrible and wonderful, beautiful and frightening.
Listen, I do not take pleasure knowing where some of my dead friends and family are right now. It makes my stomach turn. But they willfully chose to reject God’s plan of salvation and there are consequences to that. But that doesn’t change what has been established in the word of God. I don’t think we fully grasp in our finite minds how bad sin and the spiritual death nature really are to God.
Then take hope, Revival–hope that where sin abounds, grace superabounds! Take hope because the Word of God promises justification of life to ALL. Take hope and do not mourn as those that have no hope. Rejoice that centuries of bad theology cannot change one letter of the Word of God, and the final word is healing, hope, restoration, and salvation. From cover to cover, time after time, from the Prophets to the Apostles, God’s salvation of all the world is proclaimed over and over. Sorrow for the discipline those who chose unwisely must face, but there is no need to “credit” God with evils that you would not believe of the most heinous of men. If you truly do not want to believe it, that’s good, because it’s not there.
Sure we do. Receiving salvation in the OT was not the same as it is now… the difference being that Now all believers go straight to heaven when they die (instead of the holding place for the righteous before the cross) because we receive the life of God at salvation. It does not take away the spiritual truth of the two different places you go when you die.
Btw, my hope lies in what has been established in the word of God not emotional rhetoric that cannot be proven scripturally.
Btw, my hope lies in what has been established in the word of God not emotional rhetoric that cannot be proven scripturally.
How interesting–so does mine!
Edit to add: What’s interesting is how easily the “emotional rhetoric” flows about this topic, eh? I mean, if God is pure Goodness, Light, and Love, well, then, if He tells a story, it ought to be one worth celebrating. And it IS! When the Bible tells me a story worth celebrating while so many theologians tell me a story worth mourning, I choose the Bible–and I celebrate! I won’t apologize for that. One day you’ll rejoice with me. 
you’ve missed your own point, which is sad as that could possibly convince you if nothing else will.
the punishment does nothing to cause repentance, therefore sin and evil not only continue to exist (where Rev 22:3 says there will be no more curse), but thrive and grow worse and worse…in direct contradiction to Rev 22:3
so if sin and evil abound in this climate of judgement, then there is still a curse, and God’s anger must increase infinitely throughout eternity.
this model doesn’t work, unless there be provision to repent in the LoF. which would downplay the judgement and up-play the possibility of refining, of cleansing, of healing. this model of loving tending of humanities wounds and righting of wrongs lends itself more toward the removal of the biggest curse of all in the universe.
as someone else has posted, where sin abounds grace superabounds (Rom 5:20). if sin abounds in hell in the form of continued, growing rebellion against God, we have yet another problem that the grace must be superabounding as well towards them. this seems incongruous with the notion that they are being tortured. especially if, as we have already established, judgement and penalties do not lead to repentance.
shall we continue to sin in the presence of that grace…GOD FORBID. but grace leads to righteousness which leads to eternal life.
it seems absurd that in any corner of the universe, knowing as God does that fear and pain do not lead to repentance, that He would visit this exercise of punishment on people (no matter how deserving) for all eternity. how could our Lord ever be at peace in such a universe? how could we His children be at peace?
The curse of death and sin is eradicated after the millennial reign and after the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15. Where all who have received this reconciliation live in Rev 21.
Faith for salvation comes only by hearing and by the hearing of the word of God not by fire and heat. People were judged whether they received this reconciliation or not at the final judgment…therefore:
Where do you see evidence of reconciliation being extended again to the people who were judged not to have received it and thrown into the lake of fire?
the whole Bible, really 
wouldn’t the burden of proof be upon you to show where it is NOT extended?
if there’s no curse of death and sin after the final judgement…then how could there be those who are “dead” in their sins in hell? that is a definite contradiction and a problem for your position which you bear the burden of proof to clarify. we have already established our thoughts on these verses.
I believe Michael Thompson would call this a checkmate! 
yes, for the UR side!
you’ve not at all answered my question though
the burden of proof is on you. we’ve answered the question of this thread…time for you to show why you feel that a curse existing after all curse is eradicated is not a huge contradiction?
this curse would have to exist post judgement if those in hell continued in their rebellion and didn’t want to repent.
Checkmate? Not really, since God can raise the dead! we were all dead in sin, a dead person can’t make himself alive, only God can do that, when he chooses to is up to him!
Where do you see evidence of reconciliation being extended to the people who were judged and thrown into the lake of fire?
We show you that, and you keep right on asking for it, writing off the evidence with groundless assertions that it isn’t REALLY what it says it is. So we show you more, and then you still keep right on asking for it. I think sometimes that if we could show you that every verse in the entire Bible said that everyone would be saved, you’d demand more evidence. But as Jesus once challenged someone else who thought He couldn’t do the impossible, “Do you believe that I can do this?” The words are there, Revival, all over, top to bottom and beginning to end. You have only to believe that reality can be as good as the Word says it is. If God is truly going to reconcile the whole world, extend justification and life to all, have mercy on all, and save all people, well, then, He is. If God’s anger really is but for a moment while His love is for ages, well, then, that’s how it is. If Jesus really does seek lost sheep until He finds them, then He does. If all things will be summed up in Christ, then they will.
If all will be justified, who is left to be condemned?
If all will be made righteous, who is left unrighteous?
If all will be reconciled, what enemies are left?
If God is the Savior of all rather than just believers, then who is left unsaved?
If all things are summed up in Christ, then what is left?
If all are joyfully worshipping God, then who is cursing Him in Hell?
If God’s anger is but for a moment, then how can it persist forever?
If God is love, then how can He be unloving toward most of His creation forever?
Of course the answers are obvious. And contextual study of any of those passages will bear out those obvious answers. But this very biblical doctrine challenges your theological system at every point, and therefore, it MUST be wrong. It’s too much of a challenge to swallow all at once. I certainly understand THAT. But changing your mind about names being added to the Book of Life–that was a small step, and a laudable one. Be careful: you keep studying the Bible and allowing it to alter your theology rather than imposing your theology on it, and before you know it, you’ll be joining the ranks of the hopeful heretics. Trust me–as one that came to where I am through the long and arduous process of careful and prayerful exegesis, I know.
What? never mind, Michael. God bless you, buddy.
Well to start Rev 20:11-15 would be sufficient…Also Jesus said their is a sin that has never pardon not in this age or the one to come. Matt 12:32; Mark 3:29… The curse is eradicated for all who have received the reconciliation and will live in the NH and NE. Those who have not received the reconciliation don’t automatically receive it because this current world gets a makeover, corpselight.
First let me note that I do not believe in Hell because scripture does not affirm such, in the original languages that is. As you know Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna do not mean Hell. So your question is mute to me for I do not believe anyone shall be relegated to Hell.
2nd, I do believe that Jesus saves us from “this present evil age” as Paul calls it in Gal.1.4. In this present evil age people are often enemies of God, in bondage to death and evil from within and without, slaves of unrighteousness, dead to God and one another, dying with no hope or knowledge of the kingdom of God, bound as slaves in the kingdom of darkness. I believe people continue in this state until they are saved and repent.
And there are several things that inspire me to believe that ultimately everyone will repent.
- I believe we are all created in the image of God and thus the only place we will find fulfillment and peace is in restored, reconciled relationship with Him.
- The purpose of the stories you mentioned was to call people to repentance; they were not meant to affirm that people will not repent.
- I believe that it is Jesus that saves us from ourselves, not we who save ourselves. And I believe Jesus purposes to save all.
- From experience I’ve found that people eventually reach bottom and look up. The bottom is different for different people, but eventually all idols one has put faith in come crashing down.
- Scripture is full of commands to repent, and I trust that the Word that God speaks does not return to Him void, without fully effecting what He commands. He spoke creation into existence, what is the will of man to stand against the will of God!
- And of course, all of the passages of scripture that affirm in me the hope and the faith that Jesus really is the savior of all. And I believe that He is savior of all in deed, not in some bogus title-only.
- And as we celebrate Christmas, I believe the message of the angels was true, “Joy to the world, peace on earth, and good will to humanity.”
The other night as my children and I were singing “Joy to the World” I pointed out to them that Infernalists should really sing “Joy to some people” or more likely “Joy to a few”. I realize that I did not save myself; I did not choose Jesus, He chose me. And I believe that God loves everyone as much as He loves me thus I have faith in Him to save everyone. I have much more faith in God than I do in man’s will.
As to examples of people repenting after they are dead, one of my favorite is Jonah. Jonah after rebelling against God, was cast overboard, drowned, died and from Sheol, Hades, realm of the dead, in the anguish of his soul, repented and cried out to God who not only saved him but even brought him back to life. And then there are the many NDEs, testimonies of people who have died and experienced the full reality of this present evil age, only to cry out to God who saved them and even brought them back to life too.
Well, I could go on and on with reasons I believe that all will eventually repent and be reconciled to God, why I have faith in Jesus not only for myself but for others too, but this is enough for now.
The powerful words of emotions…