The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What's the Penalty for Your Sins?

Todd.

No, because no man can pay that penalty…you need a new nature or spirit. Let me rephrase my answer. If you die having not accepted Jesus… you don’t go to hell because you are not forgiven of your sins…you go there because of who you are…spiritually dead. Sin is a by product of your spiritual death nature. Jesus was already judged for those sins. Now you must appropriate what he has done by faith to be made spiritually alive by regeneration of the Holy Spirit …that cannot be produced by man suffering in hell.

Who is talking about “do overs”? We do only have one life to live; this one! But “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserabe” (1 Cor 15:19). Why is that? Do you think that Paul is referring to the corpses of physically dead believers when he speaks of those who are “dead in Christ” are “fallen asleep”? Why would a believer doubt the fate, salvation or resurrection of another believer?

So after what “death” do we “face judgment”, Aaron37? Why assume that it is physical death? (Physical death is not the penalty for sin.)

Amen!! So you are now admitting that the passage (including verse 27) is about the death of Jesus Christ? :wink:

In context, the passage says: “after THIS the judgment”. After WHAT?? Is the passage not talking about THE DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST (once for all)?

So how does that relate to NOW IS THE JUDGMENT OF THIS WORLD? And the fact that Christ said I AM COME TO SEND FIRE ON THE EARTH? Are we not tried and judged BY FIRE?

So how do these things all reconcile together?

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Can we not see that one either HAS ETERNAL LIFE or one ABIDES IN DEATH (the wrath of God ABIDING UPON HIM) and that this is a “present tense” situation that applies to those who are physically alive and “in the earth”?

There are no “do-overs”. THIS IS IT!! BELIEVE AND LIVE!! And He who lives and believes SHALL NEVER DIE (he has ALREADY PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE).

That doesn’t mean that those who currently abide in death, under the wrath of God, have not been saved by Christ’s death and resurrection. We are ALL, by nature, the children of wrath. And it was while we were yet sinners that Christ died for us, dying for the ungodly. Through Him we have been made righteous (whether we believe it or not).

athisfeet.

you said: That doesn’t mean that those who currently abide in death, under the wrath of God, have not been saved by Christ’s death and resurrection. We are ALL, by nature, the children of wrath. And it was while we were yet sinners that Christ died for us, dying for the ungodly. Through Him we have been made righteous (whether we believe it or not).

Aaron37: If this is true…are you saying those who die spiritually dead become spiritually alive in Hades? If so, where in the bible does it support post-mortem faith? Where in the bible does it support becoming spiritually alive by faith in Hades?

Aaron, Hades is the abode of THE DEAD, not THE LIVING. So then, the “living” are not in Hades, the “dead” are. Right?

So who are “the dead” and where do they “live”?

You see “hades” (hell) as some sort of “postmortem” destination. I do not.

It is by being found in Christ, alive, resurrected from the dead that one departs from hell (that which is “beneath”, that which is “of the flesh” and “of this world”) and enters into the kingdom of God (that which is “above”, that which is “of God” and “not of this world”).

athisfeet.

Hades is the place where the spiritually dead go until the final judgment when they are thrown into the lake of fire. You will go to one of two places when you physically die. Hades or Heaven. Jesus taught this spiritual truth in Luke 16:19-31.

Revelation 20:13 teaches that the spiritual dead in hades were delivered up and judged and were thrown into the lake of fire because they were not found in the lambs book of life. How do you have your name recorded in the lambs book of life? By being made spiritually alive in Christ by faith in this life.

So, I will ask you again… If someone dies phsically and spiritually dead…where in the bible does it say people becoming spiritually alive or born again in hades? Where in the bible do people come to faith and made spiritually alive in Jesus after they die spiritually dead.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has nothing to do with physical death.

The revelation of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with physical death either.

You are asking me to defend something that I never said; I never said that those “in Hades” are “alive”. In fact, I have very clearly said that they are not. Neither are they physically dead.

athisfeet.

you said: The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has nothing to do with physical death.

Aaron37: Jesus did not teach any parable without it relating to spirtual truth. The parable is very straight forward. You need alot of help to not understand the truth of this parable. Two men physically died and went to two different places. Heaven or Hades ( hell). Jesus was very clear that those who go to Hades cannot pass over to be saved.

If you do not believe people go to Hades when they die spirtually dead… Not everyone dies believers.Where do the unbelievers go when they die? And how are they made spirtually alive or born again if they die lost?

That parable is not about two men or physical death. It is about two nations (Jew and Gentile) and the gospel being taken from one (JEW) and being given to the other (GENTILE).

I can explain more about how I see it if you want, but I am short on time right now. I have errands to run.

athisfeet.

I would like very much for you to explain from the word of God how you come to that conclusion. Please explain where the spirtually dead lost go when they die If they do not go to hades ( hell). Not everyone dies born again. If everyone does not get born again before they die, how do the lost achieve this after they die. Please give scriptural support from the word of God the answers to these questions.

Aaron, are you saying that you have never come across an explanation of this parable in which the rich man represents the Jewish nation and the beggar (Lazarus) represents the Gentile nation? Doesn’t Aaron have a thread in this very forum that shows this? Not that agree with everything Aaron wrote on it (since I don’t think that Aaron see “hades” as anything more than the physical grave in which he sees nothing but “unconsciousness” and I think there is more to it than that which, to me, is proven by this parable) but he does (if I recall correctly) tie these two men, both of whom “died” but only one of whom was “buried” and “found in hades” (which I don’t think he points out) as two nations, rather than two men. No?

I’ll be back with more details if you want. Not sure if I should do it here or on the other thread since it addresses this parable specifically?

athisfeet.

Again, yes, that is what I want. Here will be fine. I’m not interested what Aaron claims the parable means. I believe him to be in error in most of the doctrines he believes in. I’m only interested why you interpret this parable the way you do and I asked you to prove it with scriptural support of course. Also, please answer the following questions with sciptural support: Please explain where the spirtually dead lost go when they die If they do not go to hades ( hell). Not everyone dies born again. If everyone does not get born again before they die, how do the lost achieve this after they die.

What do we know about the rich man?

  1. He was clothed in purple and fine linen
  2. He has good things in his life
  3. He died and was buried and he found himself in torment in ‘hell’
  4. He looks up from ‘hell’ and sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom
  5. He calls Abraham “Father”
  6. He begs Abraham to send Lazarus to his house to save his five brothers, lest they come unto the same torment

What do we know about Lazarus?

  1. He was laid at the gate, full of sore, desiring to be fed crumbs from the rich man’s table [like a dog]
  2. The ‘dogs’ [his own kind] came to lick his sores
  3. He has evil things in his life
  4. He died and was carried into Abraham’s bosom and is now comforted

Now considering the rich man…

Without going into the entire history of the OT and the lineage of Abraham, let’s just say that the rich man in this parable is Judah> But Judah, in this parable, represents the entire Jewish Nation (Israel/God’s Chosen people).

The rich man was clothes in purple [symbolic of royalty; Judah carried the royal line of Israel (Gen 49:10)] and fine linen [symbolic of the priesthood; they were the protectors and scribes of the writings of Moses and the prophets]. He had good things in his life [being a wealthy nation, blessed by God, being His chosen people]. He called Abraham father [Judah was Abraham’s great grandson; and all Israelites considered Abraham their ‘father’] and he had five brothers. [Israel had 12 sons, one of which was Judah; however, Israel had 6 sons with wife Leah, Judah’s mother – giving Judah 5 brothers.]

Now considering Lazarus…

Well, before Abraham received the seed of his promise he intended to make Eliezer (his faithful servant from Damascus) his heir (Gen 15). Eliezer, I am sure, was aware of this but remained a faithful servant even after Abraham received his promise and it was clear that he would not inherit anything from Abraham. In this parable, Eliezer represents the Gentile nations.

Now to the parable:

Lazarus [the Gentile nations] lay at the gate, full of sores desiring to be fed by the crumbs from the table of the rich man [God’s chosen people].

The dogs come to lick his sores [comfort him, take care of their own]. Why ‘dogs’? Are the Gentiles ever referred to as ‘dogs’?

Refer to Mark:

Mar 7:24-30 And He arose from there and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon. And He entered into a house and desired no one to know it. But He could not be hidden. For a woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of Him and came and fell at His feet. The woman was a Greek, a Syro-phoenician by race [a Gentile]. And she BEGGED Him that He would cast the demon out of her daughter. But Jesus said to her, LET THE CHILDREN [the Jews, whom He came to] FIRST BE FILLED. For it is not right to take the children’s loaves [take the ‘bread’ from their table] and to throw it TO THE DOGS [the Gentiles, those not chosen]. And she answered and said to Him, Yes, Lord, yet THE DOGS UNDER THE TABLE eat of the children’s CRUMBS. And He said to her, For this saying go [because of her faith and desire to have any crumbs that might fall from the table], the demon has gone out of your daughter. And when she had come to her house, she found the demon had gone out, and her daughter lay on the couch.

When Lazarus died he was carried into the bosom of Abraham, but when the rich man died he was buried and found himself looking up from ‘hell’ [hades, means “unseen” and is the equivalent of the Hebrew word ‘shoel’ which is sometimes translated “grave”] in torment seeing Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham. I see this as having happened at the cross, as us all having been baptized into the death of Jesus Christ.

Luke 16:23 And IN HELL [hades] he lifted up his eyes, BEING IN TORMENTS, and saw Abraham AFAR OFF, and Lazarus in his bosom [Not only was Lazarus was being comforted but he was in the bosom of Abraham, where the rich man thought that he should be.]

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, FATHER Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water AND COOL MY TONGUE, for I am tormented in this flame. [A reference to the Lake of Fire/God’s judgment, but notice that it is HIS TONGUE that he wants COOLED. And what is he asking for? Not even a drink of water, but just a DROP of water from the finger of Lazarus.]

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things [the wealth and riches of God; blessed of God; God’s chosen], and likewise Lazarus evil things [not chosen of God]. But now he is COMFORTED [having been brought into Abraham’s bosom; into a close relationship with God] and you are TORMENTED [afar off from the bosom of his father (God)].

Luke 16:26 And besides all this, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us; so that they desiring to pass from here to you CANNOT, nor can they pass over to us from there. [This is not a permanent chasm; the chasm will be bridged by Christ and these ‘broken branches’ will be grafted back in.]

Luke 16:27-28 And he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Luke 16:29 Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them. [They have the Words of God through Moses and the prophets, let them hear THEM and listen so that they do not come under the same condemnation.]

Luke 16:30 And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent.

Luke 16:31 And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, EVEN THOUGH ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD. [ONE did rise from the dead!! And neither were they persuaded.]

This story is not one of an eternal torment in hell for the wicked dead. It has nothing to do with the eternal fate of the wicked after they physically die. It is about the gospel and how it was brought to the Jews, the Jews rejected their Messiah and they were “cast off” and the Gentiles were “grafted in”. The gospel has been given to the Gentiles, who now find themselves in the place of God’s chosen people, represented by “the bosom of Abraham”. So it is no longer the Gentiles begging for crumbs [perhaps ‘bread’ crumbs?] from the table of the Jews; but the Jews begging for a drop of water [living water, no doubt] from the Gentiles.

Yes, there is a great gulf “fixed” between the two that cannot be crossed.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Jews were blinded so that salvation could be brought to all. Their blindness is NOT permanent. ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED!!

Rom 11:26-33 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Rom 11:15-18 For if their casting away is the reconciling OF THE WORLD, what is the reception except LIFE FROM THE DEAD? For if the firstfruit is holy, THE LUMP IS ALSO HOLY; and if the root is holy, ALSO THE BRANCHES.

The “dead” are IN HADES.

When it comes to physical death this refers to our physical grave/tombs.

When it comes to spiritual death this refers to “the body of this flesh” that Paul desired to be delivered from (Rom 7:24) that we are all prisoners of; that is “full of dead men’s bones” (Mat 23:27); and who THROAT is an open sepulcher (Psa 5:9, Rom 3:13) and whose TONGUE is a world of iniquity… set on fire of hell (Jam 3:36).

[Noting again that in the parable above it is the rich man’s TONGUE that he desires a drop of water to COOL, he being "tormented in this flame’. (flame - singular)… while “dead” and “buried” and “in hades”… AFAR OFF from “the bosom of Abraham” which is has to LOOK UP to see].

Pro 15:24 The way of LIFE IS ABOVE to the wise, that he may depart from HELL BENEATH.

athisfeet.

I am going to address your comment on the “dead” go to hades. Spiritual death has nothing to do with the body of the flesh. I don’t even know what that means. Everyone was born spiritually dead( separated spiritually from God). Without spiritual death there would be no physical death. Your spirit is full of sin and death when you are born which separates you from a relationship with God. That is why you need to be born again or reborn spiritually with the life of Christ ( Romans 8:2)

Now, if someone dies without being born again (being a believer) how do people receive spiritual life in the after life. Not everyone dies a believer. What happens to the unbelievers? How do they become believers in the next life? Please show me in the bible where this occurs.

I didn’t say “the body OF THIS FLESH”. I quoted Paul who asked “who shall redeem me from the body OF THIS DEATH?”. I gave you the Chp/Verse in my post, but here is the passage:

Rom 7:24 ** O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?**

I disagree. As I explained in the other post (which I know you haven’t read yet since I just made it) I do not believe that we are born dead, but “dying” - subject to sin and the lusts of the flesh and things of this world, but it not until sin is FINISHED that we actually “die” (James 1 :15)

If you understand who “the dead” are and do not see “the dead in Christ” as the corpses (or souls) of dead believers, then you will see that Paul very clearly tells us not to mourn “for those who sleep” for we WHO ARE ALIVE shall not prevent THEM from being gathered together with Christ, for it is THEY who shall RISE FIRST. (Just as Jesus said He would say to His angels: “gather ye together FIRST THE TARES”).

athisfeet.

Everyone was born spiritually dead (separated spiritually from God). Without spiritual death there would be no physical death. Your spirit is full of sin and death when you are born which separates you from a relationship with God. That is why you need to be born again or reborn spiritually with the life of Christ ( Romans 8:2)

you said: I disagree. As I explained in the other post (which I know you haven’t read yet since I just made it) I do not believe that we are born dead, but “dying” - subject to sin and the lusts of the flesh and things of this world, but it not until sin is FINISHED that we actually “die” (James 1 :15)

Aaron37: Ephesians 2:1 " And you were DEAD in your trespasses and sins" We are born spiritually dead according to Eph 2:1. This cannot mean physical death because you are alive when Paul declares you dead…this is spiritual, not physical. Why do you think we need to be born again? Born how? Reborn spiritually. What do you think regeneration of the Holy Spirit is? It is replacing the spirit of sin and death with the spirit of life in Christ Jesus. It is a transformation of your spirit…the Holy Spirit puts the nature of God in your spirit. Unless oneis born again they will not see Heaven.

Athisfeet, regardless why you think unbelievers and believers go to the sameplace when they die ( unbiblical) the fact of the matter is one must be born again to see the kingdom of God.

Aaron, I did not deny that men ARE DEAD in trespasses and sin, but we are also told to BECOME AS LITTLE CHILDREN.

So do you think that Jesus looked upon little children as being “dead in trespasses and sin”? Do you suppose that my 3 month old daughter was “dead in trespasses and sin” when she died? And that now she (as an UNBELIEVER who NEVER “accepted” her FREE GIFT of salvation) is doomed to spent eternity IN HELL with all of the other babies and young children (and perhaps the mentally handicapped) who have died over the centuries? I don’t!! But I suppose that you might believe that God makes “exceptions” for little babies? And this doesn’t make Him a respecter of persons? :question:

According to James, it is not until sin IS FINISHED (our lust are acted upon) that sin brings forth DEATH.

Nor did I deny that one needs to be born both of the WATER AND SPIRIT (born again) to be saved or to see the kingdom of God. But we are born of the spirit by the will OF GOD, not by our own will.

Ecc 3:19-20 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

And just as all are subject to physical death and all go a physical grave, so are all men subject to spiritual death wherein “the body of this death” IS THEIR GRAVE (HADES).

But because ALL ARE IN CHRIST, the same MANY (ALL, but ONE) who were MADE SINNERS are MADE RIGHTEOUS.

True! :smiley:

athisfeet.

I believe your baby is with the Lord.

Thank you!! :smiley: So do I! Glad we can agree on something! :wink:

Anybody,

If Hebrews 9:27 is speaking of man and natural death, then what does this mean?

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 1 Corinthians 15:51

Debbie

Debbie.

Paul is restating what he said in the previous verse (v 50). We shall not all sleep refers to physical death, but we all shall be changed meaning there shall be no corruptible, mortal life in the presence of God. All believers will have to be changed into our incorruptible, immortal bodies.