The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What's the Penalty for Your Sins?

Evangelical Universalism
#41

Debbie,
Sometimes people read that Hebrews verse and treat it as a “law” --that everyone must physically die once and be judged–is that what you are getting at?

I don’t (at this time) see this statement as a “law” per se, but rather a general statement of how things normally go. The passage is focused on Christ, and simply makes the comparison between his situation and the normal human series of events. The way I see the 1 Cor passage, Paul is speaking of the resurrection of the dead–at the end, when Christ’s visible return occurs, those who have not yet physically died will be transformed into their resurrected bodies, and bypassing physical death.

Not sure if that’s the kind of response you’re looking for (I haven’t had time to read through this whole discussion), but that’s what comes to mind when I look at these passages.

Sonia

#42

I agree with you, Sonia. I don’t think the author of Hebrews was intending to convey the idea that God has unalterably decreed that all people must die (and I don’t think the word translated “appointed,” apokeimai, suggests this). Like you said, it’s just “a general statement of how things normally go.” Man dies as a matter of course, due to his being created mortal - not because of a divine law that demands his physical death. So Heb 9:27 can still refer to physical death and not be understood as contradicting 1Cor 15:51.

#43

Thanks for the comments guys,

I should have made myself clearer. I meant if Heb 9:27 teaches that all must die once, how can “we will not all sleep” be true? If man is appointed once to die, meaning every human will die, then we will all sleep. Makes any more sense?

Debbie

#44

Aaron.

you said: Man dies as a matter of course, due to his being created mortal - not because of a divine law that demands his physical death

Aaron37: I disagree. Man was not created mortal, man was made mortal because of spiritual death. The law of sin and death ( Spiritual death) demands physical death.( Rom 8:2) Physical death is a by product of spiritual death, my friend.

#45

Well, what Sonia and I were trying to argue is that Heb 9:27 is not actually teaching that “all must die once,” as if God’s law required it. The author of Hebrews is simply stating an observable fact of human existence that is known to all people (i.e., that humans die), not revealing a divine decree which demands that all people without exception must die (it’s significant that the verse doesn’t even say “all men” - just “men” - i.e., humans in general). And the word translated “appointed” (apokeimai) need not suggest the idea of fixed divine law. So, I don’t think the fact that the last living generation will not die (or that some people, like Lazarus, have physically died more than once) is in any way inconsistent with what is being said in Heb 9:27.

#46

Aaron & Sonia.

I disagree. Man was not created mortal, man was made mortal because of spiritual death. The law of sin and death ( Spiritual death) demands physical death.( Rom 8:2) Physical death is a by product of spiritual death, my friends.

#47

"The definition of MORTAL is, a state or condition of being liable to death. Not a condition of death, but a condition in which death is a possibility.

The definition of IMMORTAL is, a state or condition not liable to death. Not merely a condition of freedom from death, but a condition in which death is an impossibility."

#48

John.

I believe Adam and Eve were created immortal and became mortal because of spiritual death. Adam lived 930 years before he physically died. He only physically died because of the spirtual death that entered his spirit. Adam went from being spiritually alive to being spiritually dead from sin.

#49

Adam was not immortal.

Life and immortality come by Jesus Christ and our being found IN HIM (not the first Adam/man).

First the natural, then the spiritual.

Just as we HAVE born the image of the natural (an earthly, mortal body - first) we SHALL ALSO bear the image of the spiritual (heavenly, immortal body).

#50

Christine.

There have only been two people who were created and born spirtually alive, Adam and Jesus. Jesus came to restore what Adam lost. (eternal life, dominion, etc) Christine, I’m more concerned of your inability to comprehend the different destinations of believers and unbelievers when they die. This is biblical doctrine 101 you fail to understand (which is alarming to say the least). Also, your inability to explain why being born again is essential to your salvation ( which explains your lack of understanding of the different destinations of believers and unbelievers when they die).

#51

Adam was formed “out of the dust of the ground”, Aaron. And it wasn’t until God breathed the breath of life into Him that he was made “a living soul”.

I’m sorry if you cannot see that this is analogous to God sending forth His spirit to “quicken” us so that we, too, can “live” (ie: be “born again”; be “born of the spirit”; be “begotten from above”) and, thus, be “created in His image and likeness” by being “conformed into the image of His son” (the LAST Adam) by having Christ (through whom we are quickened / born again) formed in us doesn’t make Adam and Jesus “equal”, my friend.

So don’t be concerned about me… even Paul knew that Adam was only “a figure of Him who was TO COME” (and not His “equal”). :wink:

#52

You got it! :slight_smile:

#53

Christine.

My friend, I never said Adam and Jesus were equal. I said Adam and Jesus were the only men to be created or born spiritually alive. Again, it just shows your lack of understanding of what it means to be spiritually alive.

Anyway, your the first person I have come across to believe that un-born again unbelievers go to the same place as born again believers when they die. I believe you are standing alone in this doctrinal error, Christine.

Unless Craig pops up and says “you got it”.

#54

Aaron, though Jesus Christ was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, Adam was not. Adam was formed “out of the dust of the ground” and was not made “a living soul” UNTIL after God placed him into the garden and breathed “the breath of life” into him. This is analogous to God sending for His spirit (and that spirit IS THE LORD, who was made “a quickening spirit”) to “quicken us” and give US (Adam) “life”.

You are missing the bigger picture here and what Adam is a “figure” of.

That which was “created in the image of God” in Genesis was NOT ADAM. It was THEM (MALE AND FEMALE) who God joined together as ONE FLESH. He blessed THEM and called THEIR NAME Adam “in the day that THEY were created in His image”. This speaks of CHRIST AND THE CHURCH (US => HIS BODY).

It is not about one man and one woman; it is about our being joined together with CHRIST (the only begotten Son of God) and being made ONE FLESH (one new man). That is how men are “created in the image and likeness of God”. It is a process, one that only BEGINS “in Adam”; it is FINISHED “in Christ”.

#55

Christine.

Do you believe Adam was the son of God?

#56

Yes, Aaron. AFTER God breathed the breath of life into him and made him A LIVING SOUL. Which is the same way that ANYONE becomes A SON OF GOD.

God SENDS FORTH HIS SPIRIT and THEY ARE CREATED because God RENEWS “the face OF THE EARTH”.

*Psa 104:27-30 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season. That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good. Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. *

Do you understand what an allegory is, Aaron? And do you understand that even Paul used Adam and Eve allegorically? And that there are many stories in the OT that teach us spiritual truths, allegorically, not just Adam and Eve or Sarah and Hagar?

#57

Christine.

Allegory? Huh? Never heard of it. Is that something new? Lol.

#58

Adam was created immortal yet God created him as a vessel that he would contain; hence the tree life ! So he had the capacity to have Gods life by eating from the tree of life but because he partook from the wrong tree he died a spiritual death which later led to his physical death

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever

Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Genesis 3:22-24

#59

Are we dealing with Genesis as if it is literally true here? Or are we acknowledging the millions of years during which both animals and early man (hominids) died in the daily struggle for existence?

#60

Try this:

Fossils and faith: understanding Torah and science