The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What's the Penalty for Your Sins?

Thanks for that link Dondi - my understanding is that most old-earth, evolution believing Christians insist that God ‘does something’ to hominids that gives them an intelligence and moral sensitivity that they otherwise wouldn’t have via natural selection alone (is this a fair thing to say?).

Like give them a conscience?

I think they had all the intelligence and moral sensitivity through the evolutionary process (man forming from the dust of the ground, and by extention the dust of the stars), if indeed evolution is true. I’m not opposed to the idea that God tinkered around until He found a species He could use. On the other hand, the process of raising up hominids up to the level of Homo Sapiens could have been the plan all along, being the natural course of things. He certainly tinkered with other species, many in humorous fashion (whoever says God doesn’t have a sense of humor hasn’t looked at a star-nosed mole yet. :laughing: )

Perhaps it is in the giving of the command (not to eat of the banned tree) that man received concience, not the actual act itself. It is this moral quality that made man most in the image of God, not the physical image (though I suspect that man was modeled after angels, who were created prior. When angels were created I haven’t studied up on.). The ability to choose right from wrong. What the command did was present a dilemma to the psyche of the human mind. Whereas up to that time, hominids were like the other animals: hunting, eating, reproducing, seeking shelter, etc., which required no consciencious effort. Why should it? It was just a matter of trying to survive. I will grant that there were some communal interaction among the hominids, and that they felt primitive emotions associated with basic survival instincts just as animals do, but there was no sense of guilt associated with consequences in dealing with a the Higher Power.

In being told not to do a certain thing, the man was faced with a moral choice outside of the primitive instincts. The Law brought consequences. Eating is a basic function of survival on the lowest level, as we’ve seen in Maslow’s pyramid that shows the hierarchy of needs. So it stands to reason why God would start here (He didn’t mess with sex prohibition yet because obviously upon the emergence of Homo Sapiens, He desired procreation of the species). Up to that point, man had free reign to eat anything in the Garden. Something forbidden was going to bring the issue right up to the forefront (There is no way a child isn’t going to entertain thoughts of sneaking a cookie from the cookie jar once it is pointed out that there is a cookie jar in the first place).

I might fancy the notion that the temptation of the serpent is merely the base instinct for food rising up from the lowest level to challenge the command not to eat. Faced with these options, the disobedience, while leading to failure, is the very thing that was necessary for the development of free will choices. Yes, there was death of the relationship with God and creration, for man became independent, yet the future redemption was already anticipated. It seperated man from the other species in that now he had the ability to chose or not chose right from wrong. He could be taught to love beyond his own need for survival, as strange as that may seem.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: That link should be in the “Humor” section, LOL. Did you see the size of the tongue on that Chinese Crested Dog?? And I’m not surprised the Madagascarites will kill an Aye-Aye on sight–it looks like some kind of evil imp! (Poor thing!)

Sonia

I recently read a book by G H Pember titled “earths earliest ages” Pember is a strong believer in the “gap theory” where he correctly translates Genesis 1:2 And the earth became waste and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

God created the earth in good order (Job 38:4-7, Isa 45:18) but here became later in this verse indicates that something happened that caused Gods creation to become waste and emptiness. This cataclysmic event was Gods judgment on the preadamic universe following satins’ rebellion. This judgment was executed on Satan, on the angels and on the preadamic creatures living on the earth who joined Satan in his rebellion and on the heavens and the earth themselves (Isa 14:12-15 Ezek 28:12-19

Whenever the words waste and emptiness are used together in the Old Testament they denote a result of Gods Judgment ( cf Jer 4:23, Isa 24:1 , 34:11) The darkness on the surface if the deep is also a sign of Gods judgment ( cf Exo 10:21-22 , Rev 16:10)

Geneses 1:1 is a record of Gods original creation. Verse 2a refers to Gods judgement on the preademic universe. The entire section from Gen 1:2b-2:3 refers not to Gods original creation but to Gods restoration of the damaged universe, plus His further creation in six days.

creationdays.dk/G%20H%20Pember/foreword.php

oddbooks.co.uk/oddbooks/pember.html