Whether You Know it or Not


Picked this from Keith DeRose’s page, which was a discussion following an article written by our very own Robin Parry. Very interesting. Post was written by Leslie Hayes (I wont take credit for it). Your thoughts?

I have been reading your writings and want to draw your attention to
I Corinthians 15:22: For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Perhaps we with a Universal bent have been using the wrong side of this verse as proof.

Consider that I never heard of Adam, the Garden of Eden or even a yummy apple. If not, why am I burdened with his sin? If the evangelist retorts it is because ALL men are sinful because of what Adam did, whether they know Adam (or accept him, the Garden of Eden and a yummy apple) then it should follow that what Christ did (take away sins through redemption on the cross followed by resurrection) should be similarily inclusive to cover those that never heard of Christ, the cross or even the Holy Grail.

If the sin of the first is inclusive of all men, then redemption by the last should be inclusive of all men.


Fire & Brimstone.

Adam represented the Human race when he fell. Like it or not it is what it is. All Adam’s descendants were passed down spiritual death( Romans 5:12). Christ represented Adam and the fallen human race in him when he died on the cross. He died in Adam’s place (our place because we are in Adam) to set us free from spiritual death and sin. Christ’s work is finished, but man must receive it by faith for it to be their own. God’s standards. Not mine. :wink:



That’s an interesting point and well made. I think the problem for the Universalist is always the amount of insistence there is in the NT on having to receive the free gift before it is of any benefit to the redeemed person whereas the fall is always seen as a done deal that blankets everyone before they’ve committed one sin (as in ‘I was a sinner from my mother’s womb’ in whichever psalm that is).

Nobody ever suggests that the effects of the fall are felt by a person only as soon as they willingly receive the curse of death (possibly there is a hint of this in those demominations who teach the age of accountability) yet the gift very definitely comes with some responsibility to receive it.

But of course Paul says the gift is not like the offence but much much better and more effective…

You notice that the gift in this passage isn’t the grace for it says…

The gift must be the faith as paul says in Ephesians 2:8-9

That faith comes when God decrees the time is right…


Those are great points, F&B.

But what if we know Adam by the osmosis of sin? That is, the sinful nature that has been passed down to us. When we first realize our condition as sinners before God (or more precisely, when we are consciously aware of right and wrong), we are face with the dilemma that something is not right in our life. We are naked to our sin, exposed in shame, as Adam was. A sense of guilt will lie upon us. In this we ‘know’ Adam.

In Christ, we know forgiveness and mercy. The guilt washes away through His Blood. (And I offer that this would happen even if one didn’t know Christ by name, but maybe only a concept of God in a consciencious sense).



You said: (And I offer that this would happen even if one didn’t know Christ by name, but maybe only a concept of God in a consciencious sense).

I believe the bible teaches that God will send laborers( believers) across your path with the gospel of Jesus if you are responding positively to the light you have been given about God. . The bible also teaches that those who respond negatively to the light they have been given…God leaves them to a depraved mind. ( Romans 1:19-28) :wink:


What if the laborers refuse to go? What about all those countries where Christian missionaries are banned? Tough luck for those people, huh?


Yeah, I guess all the people throughout history who have lived and died without ever having heard the gospel proclaimed to them just weren’t responding positively to the light they’d been given about God…unlike, of course, those people to whom the gospel has been proclaimed (who apparently weren’t quite as lost). :confused:



God is never without laborers. If one does not go he is replaced with another. Read Romans 1:19-28. People go to hell for who they are and associated with… not because they don’t hear the gospel. :frowning:



Read Romans 1:19-28. People choose their way. People go to hell for who they are and associated with… not because they don’t hear the gospel. :frowning:


Psalm 139:8


How can they have a choice if they do not hear the gospel?



They chose Idolatry Dondi. Read This:

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


Born again,
are you saying that despite pauls words in 2 cor 4, unbelievers can understand the gospel to make a free choice?



Yes. This is the only thing you should give unbelievers…Jesus Christ and Him crucified.


So even though a person has never heard the gospel, the gospel is evident in creation? Seems to me therefore, that it is possible for someone who never heard of Christ can come to God based on that testamony, seeing that what can be known to God has been shown to them already.

Sems also to me that the pronoucement of judgment is on those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. What about those people in that catagory who do NOT hold the truth in unrighteousness, but are seeking God? Are they not saved by the knowledge they gained from the testimony of creation?


So Born again,
how do you reconcile Pauls words with your own?

2 Cor 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

If I understand you right you’re saying that unbelievers ARE NOT blinded by the god of this age and that they CAN see the light of the gospel. Is this correct?


Born again,
My last post was a question to you. I’m hoping you might clarify your position for us.



Sure their blind to it…as was I and yourself. Not blinded to the fact they cannot make a free-will choice to put their faith in Jesus. Auggy, I was once in bondage to the false theology of Calvinism…I do not wish to be entangled by it again… :wink:

How are we saved..the same as Lydia..free-will choice..

Praise God for that!

Born Again, you know, I actually agree with a lot of what you say. I think there is a definate tension between the verses that support universalism and the verses that really don’t. But the tension is there. The Bible is not systematic and thus, for me, because the verses that DO support universalism exist, and we have ample reason to hope (I could even argue that we are expected to hope and pray that all are saved! After all, this is the will of God), and yet, we should always be preaching Christ crucified. I don’t think anyone on this board does not want to preach Christ crucified, after all, universalism or not, Christ is what saves. Yet I do feel you ignore the hope in the Bible for all to be saved. Why?


Born again,
if you want people to take your words seriously then you should present a better case to dissolve the obvious tension. I appreciate you challenging the EU position but you must be able to explain WHY people are blind and are expected to see?

You say they have a free choice but have done nothing to prove this point. When I present to you a verse which does not seem to agree with your position you simply say “they have a free choice” but “yes they are blind”. If you’re going to spout that this position (eu) is unbiblical then I’m going to say your belief that you humble yourself is unbiblical as well.