I’m driving at the fact that a collection of books which most Christians worship as God is actually a collection of books about the knowledge of good and evil. Obedience vs. sin, reward vs. punishment, light vs.darkness, good vs. evil, blessing vs. cursing, forgiveness vs. anger, turning the other cheek vs. retaliation - on and on and on and on.
It seems the ingestion of the forbidden tree has influenced every single thought and action to some degree.
Yep.
FB, while acknowledging the fact that many make the Bible an idol, may I indulge you further with a couple questions? If so, do you believe the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, errors and all(as being for the enlightened to see the errors and find the deeper truth) or so spurious as to have little or no worth? Secondly which is almost a repeat, does the Bible tell us of God’s plan and purpose through Christ Jesus?
Thanks,
John
“as being for the enlightened to see the errors and find the deeper truth” pretty much sums it up for me. Well said.
Todd, I agree with your take on Jn. 5:24 & 10:10. As you say Mar. 31, seeing eternal life (or being saved) as only an after-life reality is common. But no one I read (or e.g. my Fuller profs) reads it that way. Thus, this does not explain why they perceive that other texts evidence that N.T. writers shared contemporary Judaism’s expectation ofjudgments beyond death. So for me, the texts you cite seem to be off point.
Aaron,
Your Mar. 31 response was as always clear, and very on point(s well taken)! Yes indeed, the finality of Biblical judgments IS also a view “near consensus” (In San Diego, a panel was only unanimous on that! Not only N.T. Wright, Scot McKnight, and Roger Olson! Even the more liberal Phyllis Trible thought universalism was outrageous.) My only caveat is, just as we E.U.'s can expect to bear the brunt of proof, when we challenge the evangelical consensus on the end game, so on a practical level Ultra U. should expect to be those who bear the burden of being convincing when you challenge the consensus on post-mortem judgments.
And just in terms of practical apologetics, it appeals to me to follow the leading published and thoughtful defenders of E.U. (like Talbott, Parry, and Jerzak) in accepting that N.T. writers appear to embrace first century Judaism’s expectation of painful post-mortem measures. I’m sympathetic that evangelical paradigmatic assumptions may be broadly wrong. But in offering an in-house challenge, arguing that they are wrong about numerous supposedly biblical teachings seems an even more resisted challenge, than simply arguing that many of the traditional understandings provide a basis for questioning the finality of the separation of the righteous and the lost.
Of course, the real substance is the exegetical debate. I’m finding unimpressive the texts that I’ve seen are argued as inferring that God administers all painfully corrective measures in this life. So before pursuing the deserved discussion of the traditional judgment texts, let me ask for one more confirmation. Does Ultra U indeed hold that no text warns the unrepentant wicked of suffering loss or punishment after their death?
Aaron, what do you mean by, ‘Does God deal with all people justly in this life’? Since I see justice as pursuing the righteousness that God ultimately intends, is your question the equivalent of asking , “Does God administer measures that accomplish all the correction God seeks or requires?” If you mean this, I’d say, apparently not. If by ‘jusitce,’ you mean, does God administer all the punishment that would be deserved for proportionate recompense, I’d say, no, God never does that.
Aaron,
After re-reading the posts I still am trying to figure out exactly how it works.
I have a hard time seeing that God burning Sodom was the punishment they receive in this life AND there is nothing bad coming:
**“I say to you, (L)it will be more tolerable in that day for (M)Sodom than for that city. 13”(N)Woe to you, (O)Chorazin! Woe to you, §Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in (Q)Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in ®sackcloth and ashes. 14"But it will be more tolerable for (S)Tyre and Sidon in the judgment than for you. **
I’m wondering what you make of such a passage. I find it no puzzle that today’s Christian sees a future judgement coming which involves Sodom or worse Bethsaida. If Tyre and Sidon are exempt from post mortem punishment then Bethsaida or Chorazin are not.
If one tries to plug this in to the judgement of 70 AD then I wonder what in the world does Sodom have to do wtih that?
Good points.
I’ve never understood the kind of wishful thinking that tries to sqeeze all judgment, trial, and suffering into the first century.
Many who do this seem unable to conceive of God allowing anything bad to happen in the future, and strangely oblivious to how really bad some things have been in the past (the tragedy of 70 A.D. itself, and the more recent past.)
Aug,
I’m sure Aaron will have his own comments, but I’d like to say something here too. The scriptures have many warnings such as this. But I see no where here that this is to occur after the resurrection. Ultra-U affirms that there are consequences (i.e. wrath) for those who live in disobedience to the Spirit. I see this as a warning to the current residents of these cities to repent. Can you show that the “woes” mentioned here are to take place after their physical death or resurrection?
Todd
When the Lord revealed to me universal reconciliation, one of my questions to him was. “What about your coming wrath?” He pointed me too Revelation 6:15.
Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
The Lord said, “My wrath is only upon the living only while they continue to live to themselves. The wages of sin is death, my wrath is ends should they die.” He then said, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.”
The I was pointed to 2 Corinthians 5:14-15.
*For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. *
So I thought about this. What I was told and shown lined up with everything in Scripture, when we trust in the Lord, we trust in His death so we don’t have to die; and those who continue to live for themselves will experience the wrath and will die in their sins.
John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
However, both believer and unbeliever will no longer experience His wrath one they die, because it is finished and complete. There is no double jeopardy, we are not penalized multiple times when we (whether through faith or experience) have gone through His wrath already. Therefore, just as the Lord said to me when I asked Him, His judgments and wrath is in this life only, it is good news which comes in the resurrection of the dead because that is the restoration.
Are those passages speaking of our physical death or our spiritual death?
I don’t think I can agree with the idea that physical death is the primary consequence of sin, or the primary expression of the wrath of God. Physical death teaches us what spiritual death is, and it is spiritual death that we must be resurrected from to enter into life.
Sonia
Amen Sonia!
Colossians 1:22
But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through [physical] death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation.
Doesn’t matter much what we believe, when Scripture tells us differently. It took the physical death of Jesus, not the spiritual death of Jesus to take upon himself the primary consequence of sin.
Ephesians 2:16 Might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross [His physical death], by it having put to death the enmity.
Jesus did not die spiritually for all humanity, He died on the cross a physical death. If it took the physical death of one man to take upon Himself the sins of humanity, then all that was required was physical death.
Your logic, Sonia, would require somewhere in Scripture a ‘spiritual death’ is required for the wrath of God, which you have no supplied and cannot supply as it does not exist.
Philippians 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross!
It was the physical death that reconciled mankind to God, it was physical death which paid the price and propitiation for the sins of those who trust in Him and it was the physical death which was conquered in the resurrection of the dead.
It is not some hidden mystery except to the Church, that physical death of the sinner is all that was required to satisfy the judgments. He died and took upon Himself the judgments, so that we don’t have to.
Craig, I believe Jesus did suffer spiritual death.
“My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?”
How does that equate to spiritual death? If that is what is required, then the moment we sinned, we are set free from it because everyone has called out to God at one time in their life, “Why has God abandoned me?”
What actually happened in that exclamation, was the proof that it was Jesus man and not God, when He died and His expression was of a man in pain and seeing that He indeed was going to die on the cross. The same stress He suffered when his sweat was like blood, but this time there was no angel to strengthen Him.
It is there Craig. You have to have it revealed to you.
Beyond even our imagination, God through Christ Jesus, abandons Himself, for our sakes. You won’t reason this one my friend, because that which God did on our account, is made up of an unreasonable love.
I had it revealed to me one night, that at the cross, God abandoned all of Himself, giving all of Himself for and to me. I wept for hours in love.
As I said before, if spiritual death is required to be set free from the wrath of the lamb, then the moment we sinned we are spiritually dead and set free from the wrath of the lamb.
As I said earlier, it was the Lord who revealed this to me when I asked, so it was not my imagination (but thanks for trying to diminish what the Lord told me as just imagination) perhaps you have to recognize it may just be your imagination wanting something ‘super-spiritual’, and not so simple. I have plenty of more examples that God’s wrath is only for those who live, and it is not spiritual death but physical death they receive. People are already spiritually dead when they sin so Jesus didn’t die for nothing.
Yes, He gave up His life, so you didn’t have to. This does not disagree with what the Lord revealed to me. You just looking for something that is not found in Scripture or in the words of Christ and boast a mystery. This is dangerous ground, far more dangerous than me looking into the physical nature of humanity which allows them to operate in a quantum superposition in the mind, boasting a mystery which you claim to receive (a mystery because it cannot be proved other than your own word) over another, is pride.
For the sake of peace, this is all I have to say concerning this subject.
Christ, in whom the fullness of God dwelt, sacrificed all of Himself for me and sacrificed all Himself for you. This is the glorious truth. we know as “God, All in All”
It is mind boggling and heart breaking. Such a Sacrifice, this Jesus.