Did you mean ultra-universalist? Because one doesn’t have to be a unitarian in order to hold to an ultra-universalist position (which has only to do with the question of post-mortem punishment).
Good words, Aaron and Craig.
The words you’ve spoken here really speak to me, because this is what I’m experiencing right now in my own life.
I would appreciate your prayers.
I will be praying for you, Mel. A couple of my favorite verses to reflect on when I’m going through a tough time (whether it’s something I’ve brought upon myself or it’s completely outside of my control) are Hebrews 13:5-6 and 1 Peter 5:6-7.
Aaron, Thanks for the insight. I won’t bother quoting since there is so much. I’ll try to stay focused on the topic of postmortem punishment. But with that I have to continue to raise the objection again.
I see no where in david’s words that teach that all punishment has to be in this life. It may mean that to you but I fail to see this anywhere in the text. I also see no where in the text that demands the rich all come to ruin in this life. What I do see is that some people do die happy. I have to assume that it is almost certain that many have died in their sins without the pain and suffering of their sin. Some were lauhging drunk as they drove their car off a bridge. Some were working hard after a great night of love making with their spouse when the short on the 50 hp motor fried em to a crisp. To say that all people die unhappy to me is simply built upon a hopeful premise because if at least some rich people do die happy but in their sin, then there is a problem with UU.
That problem to me seems obvious, which is why I suggest everyone get involved in Bob’s corner. REPENTANCE is necessary, obedience is required and I do not find any grounds to say ALL people repent in this life. If sinners awaken to become obedienct then what makes them obedient (post mortem punishment perhaps). This is simply a burden on the UU that is going to be quite a haul.
Heres what I gather thus far from UU:
Those who live in disobedience (die sinners) shall be raised immortal as Christ was.
Those who persist in doing evil will, without repenting, will have eternal life.
This is why I say, UU requires that none die sinners. For if they must face the force of God’s wrath (as aaron states which I minimize, upon the rich) which is what corrects, then if someone dies a sinner and is raised rightouess (immortal) then no obedience is required for eternal life. And that to me is far too much to argue for.
Also a side note: No I don’t believe all drug addicts are unhappy. I do not believe all rich are unhappy. It does not require me to believe they are not enslaved but rather I agree (and moreso) their slavery in many cases dillutes thier conscious into a imaginary world of joy. The rich being enslaved (as all sinners are) is not an issue of whehter or not they are happy. Their being rich is DEF problematic in comparison to being poor. For if it is easier for a poor man to enter the kingdom of God than it is for a camel to enter the eye of a needle, then Jesus is should have said so. But in fact, Money offers something that being poor doesn’t…JOY IN THIS WORLD.
And to close this post I’ll quote George Bernard Shaw who said “The lack of money is the root of all kinds of evil”. 
Aug
I didn’t mean unitarians by UU. I was asking if the terminology you used expressed the ultra-universalist view. Craig, in saying that future eschatological hellish ‘punishment’ involve a “progressive” experience, not one moment, I take it that you reject (their?) view that it will insure transformation more instantly. But I would welcome Aaron and other’s evaluation of the perhaps confused definition of UU that I am perceiving.
Bob,
The Ultra-Universalist position is that there is no post-mortem punishment for anyone. At the resurrection all are raised immortal and incorruptible in Christ who conquered death for all men.
God’s wrath upon the sinner is delivered in his lifetime as one reaps what he sows. A good NT scriptural example of this is in Romans Chapter 1 where we are told…
Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness
Later in the chapter we are told how God allows the sinful to descend into corruption as they persist in their error…
God gave them up to…
uncleanness v.24
vile passions v.26
a debased mind v.28
Paul concludes the chapter by saying that these “deserve death” (v.32) indicating that these punishments are delivered during their lifetime.
There is ever-present condemnation waging war against the soul for those who do not abstain from fleshly lusts (1 Pet 2:11). Carnal-mindedness is death (Rom 8:6).
There are indeed those who live their lives unto death still in their sin; but according to God’s law of reaping what is sown we can be assured that everyone without respect of persons has received according to his works. This is God’s promise.
Todd
We all die in our sin, sin-ful flesh. We have to get our minds off of the sin and see the root which is sinful flesh. There are two kinds of works, dead works by the flesh and the works by the spirit. They are both appointed to teach us the difference between flesh and spirit, corruption and Godliness, evil and good. Since these works are appointed, God does not lay sin to our account. He does not impute sin. We take no credit for good works nor blame for sinful works in our journey to the realization of salvation to the utmost. We experience, we learn. We realize upon seeing the fullness of the person of Christ, He is in all things and holds all thing together working toward a merciful and glorious end.
That is how I see it but then again I believe in an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God,
John
Aionios equates progress. 
This is true, but the Bible says they shall be changed when they rise (1 Cor 15:51)…not the same old sinful person dwelling in the flesh.
This statement is not exactly correct IMO. There is a difference between immortality, which we receive in the resurrection, and eternal life, which is received in this life. The sinful and disobedient do not receive eternal life which is a gift to those who walk in the Spirit. Eternal life is a certain quality of life one enjoys through knowing God (John 17:3). Those who live in disobedience have perished and are dead (spiritually speaking) and suffer the consequences of their error as they reap what they have sown.
Todd
Aug,
If someone utilizes his God-given talent and works extremely hard, and gets rich in the endeavor, I see no problem with this. Let’s take Bill Gates for example who was given a very unique talent by God and worked very hard to make PCs a very useful tool for the world. He got rich in the process. Now, in his early 50’s, he left Microsoft and is dedicating his time giving away his money to worthy causes.
Now, on the other hand, if someone hoards his wealth and neglects the needy, God will deal with him and there will be consequences. He will be rewarded according to his works in this life. Exactly how God deals with this we may never know or even see, but I believe that He does.
Todd
Todd,
The reason I don’t agree (at this time) with UU is because it assumes that God deals with everyone in this life. I see no reason still to believe this is true. I see every reason to interpret scriptures (in their natural form) that indeed all will be raised (some to life) and some to (condemnation - prepared for the devil and his angels).
The problem I’ve raised is that the consequences HAVE to be in this life or it’s post mortem. And I am not convinced that those who life according to the flesh aren’t dealt out God’s wrath in a saving measure. This is exactly why I say, it is then absolute that UU has to advance the premise all men die saved. I simply don’t see it. And if they don’t then when they awaken 1 of two things will occur.
- God will punish them post mortem (for correction) - EU.
- God will not punish them but grant them a new ressurected body requiring no repentance. - UU.
Thus if 2 is true the following:
a) all men are saved in this life and require no further punishment
b) those not saved require no repentance for salvation. If they die and repent w/o wrath, then I guess God’s wrath is not upon them.
I should state that I hold that it is ALWAYS God’s wrath that breaks the sinner of his arrogance. I do not subscribe to notion that some are not arrogant. And I do not subscribe that all men are broken of their arrogance in this life.
Well if true, the doctrine of post-mortem retribution could only be revealed by an inspired source. It’s certainly not revealed in nature, or from experience. So from what inspired source do you think David could have possibly derived a belief that rewards and punishments were dealt out by God in another state of existence beyond this one? Do you think this is taught in the Torah?
As Todd pointed out, UU doesn’t demand that every rich person come to ruin in this life (those who are rich and seek to do God’s will, for instance, will be blessed by God). It doesn’t even demand that the life of every unrighteous rich person end in some hellish calamity or bout of intense suffering that is obvious to everyone. But Scripture teaches that every person, no matter how rich or poor, reaps what he sows - and I think there is enough evidence in Scripture that retribution takes place in this world to call into question the belief that punishment necessarily extends beyond the grave.
First, there are a number of examples in Scripture of the wicked being threatened with punishment which, I believe, is best understood as being inflicted in this world: Gen 34:7; Deut 28:15-26; Job 4:8; 15:20, 24; 20:12; 18:11; 21:17; 27:18-23; 36:6; Prov 1:29, 31; 2:22; 3:33; 4:19; 8:36; 10:2-3; 11:3, 5, 19, 21, 31; 12:21; 13:2, 5; 15:6; 17:20; 22:5, 8 (cf. Gal 6:8); 26:10; Ps 11:6, 16; 32:10; 37:35-36; 55:10, 28; 63:19; 75:8; 107:34; 146:9; Eccl 2:26; 8:13; Isaiah 3:11; 11:4; 57:20; Ezek 18:20; Rom 1:18; 2:9; 6:23; 8:6; James 1:15; Col 3:25; Heb 2:2-3; Rev 2:20-23.
Second, there are a multitude of examples in Scripture of people being punished in this world. We have, for instance, the case of Adam and Eve (Gen 3:16-19); of Cain (Gen 4:10-13); of the Antediluvians (Gen 6:5-7; 7:21-22); of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 19: 24-25); of Lot’s wife (Gen 19:26); of Pharaoh and the Egyptians (Exodus chapters 7-11 and chapter 14); of the wicked and rebellious Jews (Lev 18:25, 28; Deut 1:32, 34-35; 1Sam 12:9; Ps 107:11-12; Lam 1:8; Ezek 39:24); of Moses (Deut 3:23-27); of both Moses and Aaron (Numbers 20:12); of Abimelech and the Shechemites (Judge 9:56-57); of Eli (1 Samuel 3:12-14); of Solomon (1Kings 11); of Ahab and Jezebel (1Kings 22; cf. 21:19, 28); of Jeroboam (1Kings chapter 12 and 14); of Baasha (chapter 16); of Ahaziah (2Kings 1); of Manasseh (2Kings 21:3-6; 2Chron 33:2-15); of Jehoram (2Chron 21); of Amasiah (2Chron 25); of the Ammonites (Ezek 21:30; 22:31); of Ephraim (Jer 31:18); of David (Ps 38:6; cf. 2Sam 22:21); of Ahaz (2Chron 28:2, 5); of Judas (Acts 1:18); of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11); of Herod (Acts 12:21-23); of Elymas (Acts 13:8-11); of believers who partook of the Lord’s Supper in an unworthy manner (1 Cor 11:27-30); of the man who was guilty of sexual immortality (2Cor 2:6-7; cf. 1Cor 5:4-5); etc.
While I don’t understand (nor do I think it necessary to understand) how exactly God chooses to deal with each and every sinner in this world, I still believe that God’s retributive justice is just as active now as it was then and will be in the future. I have faith in God that he is fair and just, even in this mortal life. For some sinners, the punishment they reap may be an ongoing pang in their heart that is known only to them - equivalent, perhaps, to a dull ache that ails a person throughout their life. For others, it may be something that catches up with them only later in life, and finally overwhelms them with regret, sorrow and grief. Or, it may simply be a premature death that God sends upon them to put an end to their sinfulness (which, according to Scripture, seems to be a perfectly adequate punishment as far as God is concerned!). Whatever it may be, I do not think God’s justice is inactive during this life. Just because we aren’t sure how a person in this life is punished (or even blessed!), it doesn’t mean they haven’t been, or won’t be, punished. Scripture gives far too many examples of divine retribution taking place in this life for me to believe it is not happening now. My faith in this is based not only on my own experience and observation, but primarily on what I know Scripture to teach (which is that there IS retribution in this world). As noted before, the clear teaching of Scripture is that (appearances notwithstanding), “there is no peace for the wicked.”
So in regards to the hypothetical unrighteous man who was laughing drunk as he drove his car off a bridge, I would say that, not only could his premature death be considered a judgment from God, but it could very well be the case that he was being punished throughout his life in perhaps less obvious ways (of which observers may have been completely ignorant). Either way, to live a life devoid of the fruit of the spirit is not one to be envied, and (to me) is far worse punishment than any amount of suffering that the righteous may experience. To minimize the suffering of those who live and die without enjoying the fruit of the spirit is, I believe, to minimize the spiritual blessings of the righteous in this world.
The “problem” you raise is only a problem because you’re defining “happiness” in a very superficial way. In the highest sense, we are only truly happy (blessed) when we are living in a way that is consistent with how we were created to live - i.e., in a way that is consistent with our nature. Those who are living in sin are living in a way that is inconsistent with their nature and the way they were created to live. You’re making it sound like a person can go through life completely in harmony with themselves and with others without being reconciled to God - as if a person can live a fulfilled, blessed life as a depraved and unrepentant sinner! But that’s not true; it’s a flat-out falsehood that contradicts both Scripture and experience.
Repentance is simply a change of mind, and obedience is simply conformity (as best as is possible) to God’s law. I submit that all will be raised in a repentant and obedient state. Show we where we’re told that, unless people repent and become obedient before they die they will be punished after they die.
The question you should have asked is not, “What makes them obedient” but “WHO makes them obedient.” And the answer to that question is “Jesus Christ.” As to how he will do it, I’m not entirely sure. I confess that it’s a mystery to me. But what I am sure of is that, according to Paul, Christ will do it when the dead are raised (1 Cor 15:22-28; Phil 3:20-21).
That’s not what UU affirms. As Todd pointed out, “eternal life” (literally, “the life of the age”) does not refer to heaven, but to a quality of life enjoyed in this world, prior to death.
UU does not require that “none die sinners.” All could die sinners and UU still be true. It’s not how we die that’s important; it’s how we are raised! Moreover, faith and obedience is required for “eternal life”; what I think you’re mistaken on is that “eternal life” refers to a post-mortem blessing. I ask for proof of this.
I’ve met believers in third world countries living in homes with dirt floors who are a million times happier than, say, my father-in-law (a neonatologist who makes close to $300,000 a year). Money doesn’t offer “JOY IN THIS WORLD”; Christ does. But for those who believe it does (and I’m fairly certain you don’t), I cannot help but think that they (like the addicts) are living in an “imaginary world.” And imaginary worlds do not have a very stable foundation. Moreover, with the exception of one verse (1 Cor 15:50), I believe the expression “kingdom of God” refers to a blessing that pertains to this life and not to some blessing after death. I also believe that to enter the kingdom of God in this life is to enter a state of true joy and peace. So for Jesus to emphasize how difficult it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom is the same as affirming how difficult it is for a rich man to have true joy and peace.
I’ll take Paul’s inspired warning over Shaw’s non-inspired wit any day. 
Well I think we’d both agree that God deals with some people in this life - and we also know that God certainly isn’t unable to deal with everyone in this life. So for me to believe that he doesn’t deal with everyone, there ought to be some solid scriptural evidence to the contrary.
You appear to be referring to John 5:25-29 and Matthew 25:31-46. I’ll let you pick which one you’d like to discuss first.
To argue that some are not adequately punished or rewarded in this life for their sin or obedience is, to me, like arguing that God does not deal with all people justly in this life. Is this what you affirm?
I do think that, in some cases, God’s wrath breaks the sinner of his arrogance and leads to his repentance. But why do you think this happens? Why does this occur for some people in this life, but not for others? What do you think made the difference, as far as their subjective experience is concerned?
Aug,
To me, the whole issue comes down to understanding this one thing; Eternal life is not the same thing as Immortality. Eternal life is a state of being in this life, before death. One can either be dead in sin, or alive in Chirst; both refer to a state of being in this life. Repentance and Faith are required for Eternal life. UU affirms this. But one must understand that Eternal life does not pertain to the resurrection. In the resurrection we will be changed and put on immortality.
Todd
Todd (and Aaron), thanks for the clarifications which I am still digesting. Of course (like most) I see Romans 1 as describing present wrath. But would you agree that there is a near consensus among Biblical interpreters (from conservative to liberal), that in many other passages the NT writers reflect (even if with some modification) their contemporaries’ views that we should expect that there can and will also be future dealings by God beyond this life that can include some sort of “wrath” that we should avoid? If so, why do you think that they typically err in missing that resurrection will insure no such future judgments? Would you perceive that you have been better able to see the actual textual data, while most imbibe a sort of indocrinated group-think?
Well, I think they err for the same or similar reasons that most Christians throughout history have traditionally believed that Scripture teaches ECT (and I could modify your above comment by replacing the reference to post-mortem punishment with the doctrine of endless punishment, which has, in general, been the “near consensus among Biblical interpreters” - even among a number of liberal scholars, who would simply deny the inspiration of such passages!). I’d say that most of the verses that have been misconstrued by “orthodox” Christians as teaching the doctrine of ECT have been similarly misunderstood by both partialists and universalists (though certainly not all) as teaching post-mortem punishment in general. But just as we both deny that such passages teach the former, so I deny that they teach the latter. So, I’d say that post-mortem punishment is widely accepted by Christian scholars as the best interpretation of the textual data for the same or similar reason that ECT is. I don’t think universalists should reject the UU position because of its minority status for the same reason that we, as universalists, don’t think partialists should reject universalism just because it has traditionally been a minority position among Christians. Truth is truth, regardless of how many people (intelligent or otherwise) believe or disbelieve it.
Bob,
As I said in my last post, one of the main points that hinders people from understanding the Ultra-Universalist position is the term “Eternal Life.” Most people read that term and think it is talking about going to heaven in the after-life. To be “saved” is to have “eternal life” (they reason). To most people, being saved is only about after-life heaven. Not true.
John 5:24
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Salvation in Christ is first becoming a new creation in this present life. It is to pass from [spiritual] death unto [spiritual] life. It is to put away sin through repentance and faith and reap the blessings of the fruit of the Spirit. The term the Bible uses to describe salvation in this present life is “Eternal life.”
John 10:10
The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
This verse speaks of this present life. Christ came to deliver us from the misery of sin unto the joys of the Spirit. This does not speak of the after-life.
Once a person dies his flesh decays and is gone. When Christ returns and the dead are changed and raised incorruptible and immortal, they are no longer flesh and blood beings with all of the failties, physical needs and desires of the former self (natural man). We are raised as a changed being (praise God!). For those who did not know Christ during their lifetime, they see Him for the first time as who He is - the Savior of the World. It is an epiphany, not a decision to worship Him. Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God, the Father.
In summary, salvation comes in two parts. First: In this life we are saved through repentance and faith to avoid the consequences of sin and to enjoy Life in Christ through discipleship and yielding to the Holy Spirit. This is Eternal Life. Second: All of mankind is delivered from the bondage of corruption (Rom 8:21) unto the same glorious liberty as the sons of God. This is salvation from death, which is the last enemy - this is immortality. Once death has been destroyed God has no more enemies.
Todd
I have come to see that the “wrath of God” is symbolized in the expulsion from paradise in Genesis 3. All mankind goes through the knowledge of good and evil and all suffer (to varying degrees) from that ‘first wrath’. So under the “bondage of corruption” is being under that wrath.
The idea of pressuring (or tormenting) someone into subjection to convince them to ‘get saved’ and avoid even more wrath doesn’t make any sense (to me).
Remember the ‘forbidden’ tree was the knowledge of good AND evil (not just evil). I believe that everything written in the bible was written through that veil of wrath and that’s why there is so much confusion about all these matters.
Subjected them to their own thoughts, we are. Not for the purpose to ‘get saved’, but rather it is from these thoughts we are to be saved from when we are shown a new way of thinking.
That is an interesting statement FB. What exactly are you driving at? If I may ask.