Okay, Davo. You’re not buying what I wrote. Will you buy what the apostle Paul wrote?
And
Was Jesus an inclusionist?
I did answer this above, though you may not have understood what I said… or you just disagree; which might it be?
Again, you have simply MISREAD and consequently misunderstood Paul… this is not “salvation by works” THIS was “rewards according to works” – either positive or negative.
And
Saved… from what? From the coming wrath Jesus prophesied to his own countrymen about – neither Paul nor Jesus spoke over their heads. Such was coming in THEIR day. To believe and confess accordingly meant to declare Jesus is Lord and not Caesar… something punishable with death. Jesus told of signs to watch for so that those in Jerusalem could get out and likewise warn those without not to enter her midst Lk 21:21.
Thus to “believe and confess” Jesus meant to do as he said… doing so would “save” their bacon, as per Mt 24:13.
Okay, you call it “positive or negative rewards”; someone else calls it “salvation by works.” (I have never done so). What difference does the terminology make? The bottom line is that those who persist in well-doing will receive eternal life, and those who are self-seeking will receive wrath and fury. Those receiving wrath and fury will continue to receive them until they repent and come under the authority of Messiah Jesus.
This is the essence of my previous post which you don’t buy. With what aspect of that post do you disagree? Do you disagree with post-mortem correction or what?
From observation of the world around us, we see that there are consequences to our actions. So I would say this is also true in the heavenly realm.I believe there will come a day for each one of us to stand before the Lord and give account of ourselves. Christians being held to a higher standard because we know better. The way I see it, there will be “hell to pay” for some. Whether this be temporary or not, whether it be called corrective discipline or punishment, it doesn’t sound like someplace I’d want to be. Unless one believes there are no consequences at all, shouldn’t we all be fearing the Lord in some way or another?
I thought I would Google this question and see what others had to say. Here are a couple good thoughts:
From Why Become a Christian?, we have this:
Experience the Greatest of Loves
Experience Freedom
Experience Lasting Joy & Peace
Experience Relationship
Experience Your True Potential & Purpose
Experience Eternity with God
In Why Be Christian?, (Revisionist Jesus scholar Marcus Borg explains why “Christianity makes persuasive and compelling sense.”. The author ends with this:
Why be a Christian? Name one other person in the world that you would rather be like than Jesus.
Why be a Christian? I’m gonna go with Sherman’s response. We love Him because He first loved us. That’s the crux of it for me.
C’mon Paidion, you of all people don’t need to be asking that… just look at the mess for mankind Christendom has made with its terminological use of “hell”.
For me the bottom line is… are we understanding those terms correctly? As I understand it “life eternal” meant surviving into the promised coming new age. I don’t see it as meaning “life after death” but rather fullness OF life IN life i.e., “this life”. Jesus’ use of the term in its present tense in Jn 17:3 certainly fits this notion, as does the likes of Jn 10:10 etc.
IF as I contend these terms are pertinent to THIS life then the historical context of the NT allows likewise for the receiving of “wrath and fury” to be in THIS life and fits well with Paul’s ‘audience relevance’ in terms of that which was coming upon Jesus’ “this generation” as per the Roman-Jewish wars AD. 66-70 – the 3½ yrs of biblical prophecy.
In essence you have subjugated the authority “of Messiah Jesus” to any contrary will of mere man… this cannot be, IMO.
As I noted earlier… God set and appointed Jesus LORD of all, period! Man did NOT have to acknowledge, believe in and confess the FIRST Adam to be ascribed under him; likewise man does not have to acknowledge, believe in and confess the LAST Adam to be ascribed under Him. To be sure with regards to Christ there is much personal blessing in doing so, BUT such is NOT a prerequisite to the grace of God – Jesus is indeed LORD of all.
There may well be “post-mortem correction” but I don’t see it delineated so clearly in the NT in terms of the fiery flames traditionally ascribed to “hell” or the “lake of fire”. I think there are better historical markers for understanding these things e.g., the destruction of Jerusalem. Viewed accordingly takes all the grammatical/linguistic gymnastics out of the equation because “judgement” according to given contexts CAN be legitimately understood as either punitive & perpetual OR restorative & restricted; they can both be valid and one’s bias’, of which we all have, tends to swing these either way.
Hi Sherman,
I guess in my case, I can’t help but be a Christian. There is something about Christ that draws me to Him, something that makes me want to know more…
I would probably say that it is the Holy Spirit at work, because personally, I have no control over this force.
As I learn more about the love of Christ, more of my being is dedicated to Him.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts thus far.
the fire, in “lake of fire” is interesting. In Rev 1, Jesus has flames of fire in His eye and His face shines like the sun shinig in its strength. Hebrews says “all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do”. Jesus says “everyone will be salted with fire” and Paul says “everything that is brought to light becomes light.” Light is fire, consuming darkness.
In Rev 14 is says “tormented(punished/corrected) in the presence of God and His holy angels”. And of the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” Heb 1:7
.
As I see it the lake of fire is for opening. The word of God divides asunder soul and spirit making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart, and Paul says wood, hay and stubble will be burned up because “the Day will reveal it”.
So ETrs may see the lake of fire as actual flames of eternal torture, but the fire is really for, after the wheat is separated from the chaff- burning up the chaff with unquenchable(burns till the chaff is consumed) fire.
The fire of God opens by bringing hidden things to light like fire brings up impuruties in molten metal, to be scraped off by the smithy.
Thats why they were baptized in the Jordan, “confessing their sins”- and it was a glorious confession, setting them free.
Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess…I think the lake of fire is an intense intervention, the light penetrating the “veils” and “mists” and “chaos”(without form and void) and revealing “the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ”. Let there be light!
Thanks, Eaglesway. You sad that very well!
Origen put it this way:
For me, I have failed at life. There’s got to be something more.
Andre, this is for you, especially the first verse.
"Happy are those who know they are spiritually poor;
the Kingdom of heaven belongs to them!
"Happy are those who mourn;
God will comfort them!
"Happy are those who are humble;
they will receive what God has promised!
"Happy are those whose greatest desire is to do what God requires;
God will satisfy them fully!
"Happy are those who are merciful to others;
God will be merciful to them!
"Happy are the pure in heart;
they will see God!
"Happy are those who work for peace;
God will call them his children!
"Happy are those who are persecuted because they do what God requires;
the Kingdom of heaven belongs to them!
"Happy are you when people insult you and persecute you and tell all kinds
of evil lies against you because you are my followers. Be happy and glad, for
a great reward is kept for you in heaven. This is how the prophets who lived
before you were persecuted.
Matthew 5:3-12, Good News Translation
My honest reply to “Why be a Christian?” would be “to avoid the lake of fire”, same as when I believed in ECT. I get some peace, little joy, a little
understanding. I’m not allowed to do it myself, but someone shooting me would be welcome. OK, I do have better days than this one.
God is in charge of shaping His people.
Can you imagine anyone more competent to get you ready for all eternity?
Couple of things here. First, I am very happy to see encouragement for Andrew. That said, I have a few reservations about the beatitudes. They are ambiguous from an interpretation standpoint. Not all of them, but some of them. For example:
What does it mean to be spiritually poor? I have read many opinions, but how do we know what it really means? If it means what most people think it means “That they lack spiritual insight” and are like the publican who said “God, be merciful to me a sinner” then why would the Kingdom of Heaven be for them? That doesn’t make sense to me. One could make the argument that after some spiritual change, they would then be fit for the Kingdom… But, to my knowledge everyone not in the Kingdom of Heaven could be defined at spiritually poor. I am very unsatisfied with the interpretation of this verse.
“Blessed are those who mourn” Mourn for what? Their sin, their brother? Seems like we can add spirituality to this, but is that what Christ intended?
“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness” This describes me perfectly in my life right now. But, I’ll be honest. I am not filled nor satisfied. When Jesus talks about the living water and never being thirsty again, I guess I have never encountered that. If I am to never thirst again, then why do I need to keep going to Christ? Yet I keep going to Christ for him to teach me on a regular basis. How is that different from drinking water daily? Going to Christ daily? Seems like the living water doesn’t quench the thirst of the spirit anymore than earthly water does the body. Something isn’t quite right here.
What does it mean to be “pure in heart” is a pure heart one that sins? If you have lust, greed, malice in your heart, how is that pure? And how can your heart be pure if you do those things? I am not even talking on an habitual basis, but even occasionally… How can you be pure and succumb to any temptation? That seems… impure. Perhaps that is why “no one has seen God”? as I think 1st John says. Yes, perhaps this beatitude does not become fulfilled until some future event when the heart is completely purified…
About the only one that makes sense to me is “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy”. Anyhow, the beatitudes are neat and all, but I find them difficult to interpret the way Christ intended them. And, the only one I really understand is mercy… and I see the Christian “right” lack this specific beatitude on a massive scale.
That said, despite this post, I am definitely hungering and thirsting after righteousness. I just don’t really see the blessings or the promises that are promised to such a one. I also see in more black and white on these, and I am not sure God sees it that way. I see the heart as either totally pure, is not pure at all. Pure water is defiled by a very, very small impurity and ceases to be pure. In that way, I see someone who still sins as impure. Therefore, I have yet to meet someone who is pure in heart, though I’d love too. But is that what Christ means? I don’t know.
You and me both. George MacDonald wrote (I think in Lilith) that most people waste their entire earthly lives. That is a sobering thought.
For doing what?
Thanks everyone for your thoughts thus far.