It seems like most of the people who hate the teaching dont even study it. I find they just cling to texts traditionally used to support ET, quote other scriptures out of context, church tradition, or philosophical arguments.
Because the works of the flesh keep people into that mindset. Although I am not arrogant enough to suggest I am one who will overcome in this life (though I pray, and strive), I do think it is plain that there are going to be very, very few that do overcome in this life. As I observe my fellow Christians, even the “ultra-bible believing” (whatever that means) ones, I observe they are slaves to their sinful impulses. Sure, not the taboo ones, like adultery! but ones listed in the Galatians all the same. The true Christian’s - They are the ones doing the work of the Father, not just talking about it and bickering about what He will or won’t do.
Look around you - Christian’s live in sin. They overeat, they don’t take care of their bodies (temple of the Holy Spirit, I might add) by exercising and working hard. They gossip, they are unforgiving, hateful, childish, idolatrous, etc… I really haven’t met someone who doesn’t fit the Galatians’s list. I believe they exist, I just have never met one. I have been fooled one too many types by preachers who appeared to have it all together, then are caught in adultery, homosexuality, swindling, gluttony and idolatry, among much worse! All while professing to carry the true faith. Yes, way too many of those people. They cause more harm than good as others look up to them, wondering how they “have it so together” yet are corrupted vile wolves on the inside. I have more respect for those recovery and in AA meetings than most pastors who profess to live a righteous life and hide all their struggles and failures, or are so superficial with them that they are meaningless in regards to transparency. Like the preacher who says “I stole once… I stole a paperclip - See I am a sinner too!” What a sham. What a show. They do it all the time. Their jobs and pay are more important to them than transparency. Their positions of authority, they don’t want to lose them. Were not talking about airing dirty laundry, just real honest transparency. Instead we have hypocrisy… That might be the greatest sin and the one Christ was most harsh against. It might be why we (humanity, society) universally abhors and despises those who "“Do as I say, not as I do” when they are caught. They condemn others and stand caught in the same sin/crime they condemned others of! This Christian isn’t so easily fooled anymore. Wise enough to see that the talk the walk is meaningless. Utterly meaningless and that is why people are opposed to it, because we are all sinful in need of our Father to cure us of this disease that lives in us.
It seems like most of the people who hate the teaching dont even study it. I find they just cling to texts traditionally used to support ET, quote other scriptures out of context, church tradition, or philosophical arguments.
Joe121589 Posts: 82Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:16 pm
Human nature being what it is thinks if something is more common it is worth less then if it is rarer, so I think some are offended that their most cherished hope and belief is cheapened by everyone eventually participating. Of course a true Christian who loves his neighbor and enemy s/b thrilled at the possibility.
Hey Gabe, hope all is well…
I have a slight glimmer of hope for you.
There are gatherings that are working toward Christ and are part of the Ecclesia, That do know that we all are sinners, and yet we can, through Christ effect change:
Here is my blog about my home assembly: We are not very snazzy but we love the Lord!!
Mission Square
It is hard to describe mission square church.
No denominational ties, no business meetings, bible study twice a week, services on Sunday morning and evening, and recovery group on Monday night.
White metal building, seats from an old theater that have been re upholstered. The walls are rough sawn pine. The parking area has creek gravel on it. Makes for a noisy entrance and exit. Everyone in the building knows when you pull in.
There is a sign on the building and an old steeple from some other church that sits in the grass out by the road. The pulpit is a handmade affair that was a gift.
But none of this really describes Mission Square.
Mission Square is about people.
And the one thing that evens the playing field at Mission Square is that every one of us has a problem.
Some of us drink, some smoke, some have other addictions. Some have marital problems, some of us talk too much, some not enough.
Some work too much and others can’t find enough work. Some get depressed. Some have obsessive compulsive disorders.
Some come from horrible wrecked childhoods.
Some have problems with their children. Some can’t figure out how to fix themselves or the loved ones around them.
Some have no hope.
But we come together to hear about Jesus. About His love and mercy. We love each other. We try to help and encourage one another.
Jesus came to fix things. Things that are broken. Things that hurt.
And that is what we all try to do at Mission Square. Try to help fix each other through hearing about, learning about, singing about our savior, Jesus.
We’ve been at it for five years give or take. It all started with the shepherd of this interesting flock, Jeff, making a few phone calls seeing if anyone wanted to get together for a early morning worship service. He was not involved in a church at that time, and I think God was working on him.
We started meeting early Sunday mornings at the gazebo in the town square. As time progressed and the weather changed, Jeff cut a deal with someone who owned a building on the square in town.
It was rough, but we were under roof and started to have regular services and bible studies. We tried different things, different times.
Some things worked, others did not.
For a long time we used a songbook without the pages being numbered. When we first started, I would get up on Sunday morning early, go to my computer and run off ten copies of the three songs we would be doing that day. At church we would hand them out and at the end, collect them. After a while we had a pile of papers. Someone bought some binders and put them into the binders as a sort of songbook. But all these song pages originated on my computer for my own use, so there was no page numbering and some of them did not even have a song title at the top.
Since those early days, we have had some folks donate hymnals to our church, but we continue with the handmade song books. Mostly because I don’t read music and was not raised in a protestant church, so I don’t know very many of the songs in a hymnal.
It was kind of interesting to watch visitors when you would announce a song and say “it is twelve pages from the front.”
We’ve come through a lot together. Some have died, some will come for a few weeks and then we won’t see them for months. We don’t hand out attendance badges. We just love each other when we do show up.
Some come and have special truths that they want to talk about. Sometimes odd or bazar things. Other churches will only take so much of them. Some of the other churches have asked them to leave. We let them have their say.
At some point Jeff built a white metal building that had room for a church, a shop, and an apartment for him. We are blessed.
We have it by a reliable source that at least one person from another church has recommended our little church. It seems two men were talking and it was apparent that one of the men was lost and really needed help. He had some real problems. The man he was talking to (who went to a church himself) said “you need to go over to Mission Square, they love everyone.”
Yep.
If by any chance we have honed in on a theme for our little congregation, it is that God is merciful and loves everyone and as part of Christ’s church, and we feel compelled to do so also.
Even though we all have some sort of problem, we know who the great healer is and we come to Him.
And we know Jesus loves us.
Halleluiah!
My experience differs. In the few years since I accepted EU there have only been a handful of people who say they hope it were true. Most deny it as not being supported by the Bible.
I once met with a group of about a dozen guys from the church I attend and presented some of why I support EU. Not one of them said they wished it were true.
I wonder if it has to do with a human desire to see “justice” done - and then struggling with the idea of God’s mercy to those that haven’t repented in this life.
I think this is why we/they often don’t admit that we wish it was true. Even if we do secretly desire it to be true, we don’t admit it because we don’t think the Bible teaches it. I had a seminary professor raise the question, “Is it sin to wish that a clear teaching of Scripture is untrue?” We were talking about hell at the time. I’ve always wondered if he was secretly a universalist. Anyway, I think it is sin to wish that a clear teaching of Scripture is untrue. We’re to believe what’s true. We’re to believe what the Bible tells us.
But therein lies the paradox, for me at least. The Bible clearly says that there is a hell, and that in the end, all who reject Christ will go there forever. And yet, now, God desires for all to be saved. So we also should desire for all to be saved, while at the same time recognizing that not all will be saved.
The best way that I can reconcile all this at this point is to remind myself that God’s ways and thoughts are not my ways and thoughts, but are higher (deeper, superior). And I don’t use that merely as a cop-out to say that I’ll figure it out later. I mean it in the sense that since God is infinitely more complex, and we’d expect that we wouldn’t be able to fathom His plan, mind, or desires. Any theological system that claims to have God figured out is probably wrong.
But therein lies the paradox, for me at least. The Bible clearly says that there is a hell, and that in the end, all who reject Christ will go there forever. And yet, now, God desires for all to be saved. So we also should desire for all to be saved, while at the same time recognizing that not all will be saved.
Hi STP,
The issue is possibly (sorry if I’m presumptuous) do you accept bible translations as “the bible” or would you or do you consider what the ancient kione greek words may mean. For example “hell” is probably not a real biblical word. We do have a lake of fire which is described symbolically but “hell” comes mostly from the greek word “hades” which is the greek word for “sheol” from Hebrew which essentially means “grave.”
The inspired documents are those which were originally penned (the greek, hebrew, and aramaic). So I see what you mean when you say “hell” is not a real biblical word. But, using the same logical, neither is “Jesus” or “salvation.” Or really any word we read in our English versions, as they’re all translations of the original text (unless you find a transliteration of a word, which is usually a cop-out when it comes to the translation process).
So, yeah, the concept of hell (which is built on all the words you named, and also additional concepts of judgment and such) is, in my estimation, certainly biblical. Even if I’m wrong in what it’s called.
The inspired documents are those which were originally penned (the greek, hebrew, and aramaic). So I see what you mean when you say “hell” is not a real biblical word. But, using the same logical, neither is “Jesus” or “salvation.”
I don’t follow why “Jesus” or “salvation” would not be biblical words unless the translators changed the meanings into the English. My point for hell was that the greek & Hebrew words actually meant grave, but Jesus is Jesus or am I missing something?
“Jesus” and “salvation” would not be biblical words based on your logic because they’re not found in the original languages. They’re English words. So is “hell.”
Anytime you translate from one language to another, there’s always a range of meanings for each word that can be used, especially when it comes to concepts rather than concrete objects.
“Jesus” is a poor example, because, you’re right, it always means “Jesus.” But take the greek word for salvation (σωτηρία). It’s almost always translated “salvation,” except in Acts 27:34, “Therefore I urge you to take some food. For it will give you strength (health, safety, salvation), for not a hair is to perish from the head of any of you.” And even these words are “best guesses” in a sense when it comes to translating an ancient language. They tell us the sphere of meaning for the word, so that we can begin to understand what it’s getting at.
So to say that sheol always means grave would be an oversimplification. While some translations probably translate it as hell too often, the concept of hell seems clear to me when taking things like sheol, the LOF, judgment, etc as a whole. I don’t know where the English word hell came from, and certainly the way most people picture hell is probably way off from the reality, but the concept of a place of separation from God seems, to me, to be clearly biblical.
Actually, it’s easy to find out. If you look at:
Wiki - Hell
Online Etymology dictionary
The Wiki source says:
Obviously, I’m not a Greek and/or Hebrew scholar - like some here. But I have taken a considerable number of literature and creative writing courses, at the College of DuPage. And I have read works of literature - like the Canterbury Tales (with the Raunchy Chaucer) - in Ole or middle English. Currently, I’m endeavoring to expand my language literature horizons on the Spanish, Russian and Mandarin fronts.
but the concept of a place of separation from God seems, to me, to be clearly biblical.
Yes I agree so the crux would be is the separation permanent and or is a process of reconciliation possible? When I look at the greek words for judgment (krisis & krino) I believe it is a likely possibility. It could be some or it could be all but it seems possible. If God’s will has impact then this may be the pathway. Any thoughts on this?
It’s kind of interesting that Western Roman Catholic and Protestant theology, looks at heaven and hell as places. Bur Eastern Orthodox theology (which I side with , on this point), looks at them as states. Since God will be - or is - everywhere present (according to EO), heaven and hell is how we respond, to being in the presence of God.
You dont mind me asking, but why are there people preaching Eternal Torment on a forum geared towards Universalism? I was just wondering, are you just giving your theological views, trying to convert people away, or just interested in Universalism? I have had some experiences where people can get easily hostile towards UR, or anything that does not fit into hardcore infernalism.
I know that from my point of view, I really hate internalism, I guess because I experienced anxiety when I believed in ET, well sort of. I found UR shortly after, well nearly becoming an atheist after I had an experience where the world felt expanded beyond the confines of an universe dictated by arbitrary rules and sick punishments. However, I cannot tolerate or accept a definition of reality where many or most of humanity is doomed to an endless state of damnation.
Well, Joe, there are many places between the two extremes. That is:
Only a few will be saved
All will be saved
Most folks here are probably far away from the first point. But not all would agree absolutely with the second point. But many - like myself - might come close. And there are different perspectives on what hell is, even within traditional theological and church frameworks.
Anyway, my mission here is to introduce everyone to the Holy Fools tradition. It’s a valid historical Christian tradition, that originated within the Russian Orthodox Church.
http://dudespaper.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/holyfool.jpg
I have wondered if Universal Salvation, Eternal Damnation, or annihilationism, and everything in between are all just belief systems and only models of reality. Personally, I believe that Eternal Damnation is a possibility in theory, but I believe that Universal Salvation is a greater possibility. I read a blog a while ago from a Lutheran who spoke about believing in both Eternal Damnation and Universal Salvation essentiallylutheran.blogspot.com … art-i.html
I read a book last year from Brad Jersak called “Her Gates will not be shut”. But he did a careful examination of Annihilation, Eternal Damnation, and Universalism. Basically he held to the position that the bible teaches all three positions. I sometimes wonder if these matters of our ultimate destiny can truly be defined, even though it can be most difficult to not want to give an ultimate definition.
Mine does, too. The most common response I have personally had to the idea of universalism is one of anger and derision, something along these lines: “Then why even be a Christian in the first place? If I can lie and drink and sleep around and still go to heaven, then what’s the point of not sinning? And it wouldn’t even be fair. Hitler in heaven? Then I wouldn’t want to go.”
Also, I have only rarely seen believers grieve over the errors of unbelievers. Instead, I have far more often seen believers take a sort of satisfaction in contemplating their unbelieving foes going to hell.
I have also only very, very rarely heard a believer feel threatened by hell. Hell is almost always for other people.
Basically he held to the position that the bible teaches all three positions. I sometimes wonder if these matters of our ultimate destiny can truly be defined, even though it can be most difficult to not want to give an ultimate definition.
Joe121589 Posts: 84Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:16 pm
Again and again it comes down to the correct translations from the original ancient greek and in fact to my knowledge the words “eternal” and “damnation” are both incorrect translations but at the time of the KJV few people were literate. Two positions are possible which are UR/CU and conditional immortality and something in between.
I think that is more concerning the point of why being righteous and not engage in hedonistic pleasures if this life is all there is. Basically if life is utterly meaningless, things like heroism, selflessness, suffering, sacrifices, honesty, ect are all completely pointless. The only thing these virtues can give us on an atheistic materialistic level is what we see in totalitarian systems, and our current economic system. Its all just vain worship of some entity that doesnt care about you.
I remember talking with a Jehovahs witness friend of mine about how can atheists tolerate the corporate system. I mentioned that from the Christian point of view, we have something better to look forward to, and how a system as such is not the true destiny.
Which I do agree. I definitely know that Aion is not an endless duration. I have read that Aion is not wholly linear time, but a fullness of time, or time of a special quality. But I agree that it contains no hint of anything in contradiction to Universal Salvation.