Here’s an interesting story in the BBC News. Pope Francis recognises second Mother Teresa ‘miracle’
I do believe I have one of the main reasons why U.R. is largely rejected by the greater christian community !, but think nobody will like the answer
Good points, qaz.
Also good points, Cindy.
I just meant that I thought it was “maybe” a biblical question, not certainly one. That’s why I then quoted Luke 11:11-13 (which includes the question I was referring to when I said your question was “maybe” a biblical question), and then I explained why I didn’t think Luke 11:11-13 necessarily was the same question as yours. I agree with you: if your question is in fact one that the Bible would have me ask, then I should be convinced by it. I’m still pondering whether it is or not.
Because I’m a sinner who needs grace. And I don’t have it all figured out. Sin has affected every area of my life, including my thoughts and desires. I agree that generally I can know if I’m acting out of selfishness, but that’s pretty much all the time in one way or another.
So what is in view in Romans 9?
Thanks. I’ll have to think on those.
Yeah…you?
Hmm, Qaz. VERY interesting point, and one I hadn’t considered. Thanks!
Also, it was " . . . while were yet His enemies . . ." that Christ died for us. IOW, His death did not somehow BECOME something done for us AFTERANDONLYAFTER we repented. It was for us WHILE we were yet His enemies. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses against them. WOW. When Jesus prayed, “Father forgive them for they know not what they co,” maybe it was not only for the Roman soldiers who crucified Him that He prayed, or only for the Jews who made it happen, or not even only for the entire world of His day, but for ALL the world. God is not imputing our trespasses against us!
GOD IS NOT IMPUTING OUR TRESPASSES AGAINST US!!!
Did you hear me, people? We don’t know what we’re doing. What Father is up to is not keeping a record of all the bad things done in the world. What He’s up to is conforming us to the image of His Son. ***HE ***does this. Do you not want to jump up and down and shout your worship to His throne–to the throne of our heavenly Daddy who says, “Come up here!”? God is oh so good!
I found an interesting historical article on the Evangelical Patheos site. It’s Freewill Theism and Universalism
I see. I would never base a whole doctrine on implications from Scripture. I believe there are plenty of verses more clear than the implication from Luke 11:11-13. I simply pointed out that implication because, in addressing the question about judging what’s good compared to God’s goodness, the verse seemed relevant.
In answering the verses in 1 Timothy, I would point to passages that are more clear. In Romans 7:15-25, Paul clearly admits that he continues to sin, and is thankful for Christ who delivers him even from those sins.
In answering the verses in 1 Timothy, I would point to passages that are more clear. In Romans 7:15-25, Paul clearly admits that he continues to sin, and is thankful for Christ who delivers him even from those sins.
smalltownpastor Posts: 23Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:08 pm
Yes and I think John had something to say about those who claim they are without sin?
I’m wondering, STP, what you do with the following texts?
Hint: There are LOTS more, but just for now, this is enough.
Yes, it was while we were yet enemies that Christ died for us. But the benefits of that death do not apply to us until after our repentance. Yes, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself—a process brought about by the world repenting, one by one. And when they do, He will not count their trespasses against them. But if they don’t, He will.
Remember Peter’s lengthy talk to those who were responsible for Christ’s death. He concluded that talk with these words, "Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
It was at this point that his hearers were cut to the heart, and said, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
Peter’s response, ““Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forsaking of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
If they hadn’t repented and been baptized, and forsaken their sins, God would have counted their trespasses against them.
I believe in the ultimate reconciliation of all to God, but that won’t happen until every last person has repented (had a change of heart and mind) and has forsaken his sins through the enabling grace of God, a grace that was made available through the death and resurrection of Jesus.
I’m not certain you’re right about that, Don. I’m not certain you’re wrong, either.
Either way, I think it’s a disagreement that’s not going to make any difference in the final sum of things.
I think, though, that perhaps the difference between us is that I’m leaning toward “God isn’t mad at us; we’re the ones who are mad at God.” So the end result is the same, only not perhaps for the same reasons. If we refuse to BE reconciled, then we continue in slavery to sin (which leads to death). That doesn’t mean that God is keeping an account against us (unless you’re right (if I understand you correctly)). It does mean that we are still in our sins until we consent to come out of our sins. IOW, the sins, and living in the sins and their end–which is death–ARE the punishment we suffer until we consent to come out of it.
Sorry . . . I know that sounds pretty round-about, but I’m sure you can follow me. Now, do we really differ? I’m not sure–you’ll have to let me know whether you think we do.
I’m not certain you’re right about that, Don. I’m not certain you’re wrong, either.
Either way, I think it’s a disagreement that’s not going to make any difference in the final sum of things.
I think, though, that perhaps the difference between us is that I’m leaning toward “God isn’t mad at us; we’re the ones who are mad at God.” So the end result is the same, only not perhaps for the same reasons. If we refuse to BE reconciled, then we continue in slavery to sin (which leads to death). That doesn’t mean that God is keeping an account against us (unless you’re right (if I understand you correctly)). It does mean that we are still in our sins until we consent to come out of our sins. IOW, the sins, and living in the sins and their end–which is death–ARE the punishment we suffer until we consent to come out of it.
Sorry . . . I know that sounds pretty round-about, but I’m sure you can follow me. Now, do we really differ? I’m not sure–you’ll have to let me know whether you think we do.
certainly I was not referring to you, STP…not referring to anybody in particular, just speaking in general terms (letting off a bit of steam, etc )…it is a safe place for you so, please…carry on !..and have a Merry Xmas, Happy New Year !.
Reading some of the comments on the “Pastors” thread, this thought was somehow triggered …
I remember reading something in CS Lewis once (Surprised? Mere Christianity?) about being in the “IN” group. The inner circle. How we long to be in those inner circles, to know that we are accepted and that we belong at the core of the group. Maybe this is one of the things people don’t like about UR. It eventually admits EVERYONE to that inner circle, which effectively obliterates the inner circle. There’s nothing left to make US special more than anyone else is special.
In the short run, I think there actually IS something to make Jesus’ present-day followers special. It’s not the kind of “specialness” the world typically desires to have, though. We are the servants to the lost children, to help them find their way home. People may SAY they want to serve others, but usually they also want the authority and acclaim that comes from appearing to be a public servant (such as, say, a congressman or a parlamentarian or whatever positions of prestigious authority you have in your own nations.) For us, the acclaim is that of Christ, and we know where that took Him. The way of suffering. THAT is not the kind of inner circle people long to be taken into.
In the long run, I think (and yes, I do actually hope) that we will all be on the same level, all in the inner circle, and all always be working to bring others (Maybe other creatures than humans? I nominate my dear doggies!) into that inner circle of love and life with us. So the ultimate objective is not that WE should be in a privileged position, but rather that ALL our Father’s creation should join us in the family mansion and ALL of us be servants to one another in love. That means no one is any more special than anyone else. In my experience, this is one of the chief objections (though certainly seldom voiced in these terms) that many people have to UR. 1) that others will be just as special as they are, and 2) that they are not gonna be any more special than anyone else. Sad but true.
Not everyone who objects to UR feels this way. Some just don’t see how it can be true, scripturally. Some are afraid that to drop the belief in hell means THEY are in danger of going there. It’s a terrifying thought. They’ve been raised to believe that Jesus died to save us from hell. This is not strictly true, though it is true in a round-about way. Jesus died to save us from sin. Gabriel told Joseph that was the reason Jesus was to be NAMED Jesus. Sin leads to death, according to Paul (Romans specifically), and I think it is that kind of death that IS hell. The consequence of sin, the wages SIN (not God) pays to sinners is death. Not the kind of death where you sleep and are unconscious and unsuffering, but the kind of death that makes you want to shoot yourself just to escape the suffering–if that would work. (Which it won’t.) There is only one escape from that kind of death, and His name is Jesus.
The fact that Jesus would save ALL people from that kind of death by persisting in wooing them and finally winning them over (or if you’re Calv, by just making it happen) or by allowing them to see and experience the suffering their sins bring to them (and to others), ought to fill us with numinous joy and the sort of rejoicing that makes one tremble. But that truth has been obscured. By our selfishness? I think so, at least partly. We want to be in the inner circle, and for that to happen, there’s got to be an outer circle. Sure, we bring as many as will come INTO that inner circle, but ultimately, lots of people–both people we pity and people we abhor–are gonna be left outside. That’s what allows the inner circle to even exist.
What if it were possible for the whole world to be one expanding and ever welcoming inner circle, ever growing as it takes in the whole of creation? What if God hasn’t stopped (and never will stop) creating? Why should He? He’s infinite, is He not? What if we will ALWAYS be drawing “people” into His inner circle forever? That last is certainly speculatory, but I don’t think unreasonable. Yes, perhaps there WILL always be an inner circle with expanded rings surrounding it of the various levels of “in-ness”. BUT the whole point of the inner circle is to envelop all the world and worlds and universes into its blessed and always-growing center? Now THAT is for me something to get excited about. Delirious, even. THAT’s a reason to give one another gifts and say Merry Christmas–because the good news really IS good news to all people–even to those of the inner circle.
so true…some seem to really want to believe they are ‘especially special’ in God’s sight…they are ‘specially chosen’ by God for salvation not ‘eternal hell’ like all those other people ‘over there’…this makes them feel ‘special’…gives their lives meaning that they are ‘special’.You are right,Cindy… it is sad.
Cindy, I don’t know either whether or not we disagree.
God counting our sins against us is not tantamount to inflicting penalties upon us because of our sins. I don’t believe God penalizes. However, I do believe He engages in some pretty severe correction, both in this life and the next.
I think my signature statement expresses my belief about this.
Just FYI… my thoughts are coming from an ‘inclusive prêterist’ position aka pantelism and as such have been reached more by the rationale of fulfilled eschatology as opposed to the more philosophical approach of universalism.
The redemption of Israel although the focal point of Scripture is but in fact the penultimate point… the end game of Israel’s redemption was the reconciliation of man –– Israel was the key means by which this was to happen, and happen it HAS; humanity HAS been reconciled. Not all recognise or realise this, but I would maintain that it is so. Interestingly enough most so-called “believers” don’t believe it… yourself included. I too was there once.
Now as to Romans 9:22-24…
As I understand it… these verses are NOT speaking generically about “us” i.e., believers post that age BUT rather…
1) refers to the firstfruit saints, aka the apostles and disciples of the AD30-70 era who were “in Christ” ‘working out their salvation’ “with fear and trembling” on-behalf-of “all Israel” and in divine consequence through Gentile inclusion (Acts 13:48; 15:14, 17) “the whole world”.
2) “the vessels of wrath” were unrepentant members of old covenant Israel refusing to listen to their messiah and live. Through unrepentant stubbornness they would to die in their sins (Jn 8:21, 24; Lk 13:3-5) not knowing in this life the forgiveness that was theirs (Lk 23:34), but would be confronted with the destruction and devastation of the 42mth or 3½ yrs (times time and half a time) Roman-Jewish wars of AD. 66-70, where many lives would end (in terms of expulsion away from the Presence of the Lord in Jerusalem/Temple) by either death or deportation to Rome; which BTW is the key to understanding 2Thess 1:9; Jer 23:39-40. All this culminating in the conflagration and destruction of City and Temple as spoken of by Jesus here…
I understand these “the vessels of wrath” to be limited and like “the vessels of mercy” fulfilled a specific and unique role in God’s redemptive plan and purposes, being ONLY PARTIALLY blinded in hardness (Rom 9:19; 11:25) for the greater whole; of which many of the firstfruit saints likewise paid in blood (persecution) and yet were TOGETHER “…from the same lump…” Rom 9:21b and thus will… “all Israel be saved” and so according to Rom 11:15 the whole world of humanity.
Now on the purely human level one might rightly say “sucks to have been assigned with the rebellious” but Paul would simply remind us… “Does not the potter have power over the clay… But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Rom 9:21a, 20. God knew what He was doing and HOW He was doing it and because His mercies know no bounds as bad as “the end” was for those rebellious ones all hope was NOT lost, for…
Now that Davo’s had time to post his answer, I’ll take a crack at Romans nine.
Verses 1-9
Paul expresses his anguish that Israel has not fulfilled its calling to be the light to the world, the city set on a hill. Now they’ve lost their election to that post and it just kills him. He wishes it were he and not them.
Verses 6-14
He explains how this can be–that the Israelites are cut off, but nevertheless, God has not broken His promise. It is not the children after the flesh, but the children after the spirit who are the elect. He shows that even among the children after the flesh, some are chosen and some are not.
Verses 14-18
Paul explains how God chooses whomever He will, not because of anything this one or that one has done, but because it is HIS choice and that is what He has chosen. Moses is used as a vessel of mercy and Pharaoh is used as a vessel of wrath. Being a vessel of wrath isn’t a hopeless situation though. We were all once vessels of wrath, including Paul. I know this in part, because in another place, Paul also says, “God has bound all up in inequity that He may have mercy on all.” The Jews in Paul’s audience cannot complain that God has cut off the majority of the Jewish nation from election, and the Gentiles must not boast that they were chosen instead. (Like the branches of the fig tree later in the same letter.)
Verses 19-24
Some are vessels of wrath and some are vessels of mercy. Why does God still find fault? Of course God has a problem with people behaving badly–both Jews and Gentiles. If they can’t help it, that doesn’t mean He’s okay with it. Since He ISN’T okay with it, He will destroy the vessels of wrath. He does this as an act of mercy, in order for them to become vessels of mercy–whether in this life or in a subsequent age. You and I have been/are being destroyed as to the wrathful part of us, and constructed into vessels of mercy. God is not in the repair business. He is in the tearing down to the ground and building anew business. He takes away the stony heart and gives hearts of flesh. Tearing down and building up.That’s what He does. Some now and others later. Some Jews and some Gentiles are chosen as vessels of mercy–not all Jews are vessels of mercy; not all Gentiles are vessels of wrath.
Verses 25-29
Paul illustrates through the prophets how those who WERE vessels of wrath (not My people) BECOME vessels of mercy (I will call My people). He also shows how those who were born into the chosen people become vessels of wrath. Yet they do have offspring, and as I’m sure you know, Ezekiel gives a promise of hope and restoration even to Sodom and even to Jerusalem who, he says, has done worse things than Sodom.
Verses 30-33
Success can only be had by pursuing the election by faith. Works of the law won’t do it.
Granted this is a scary chapter taken by itself. Nevertheless, it must NOT be taken by itself. It must be taken in context with the rest of the letter. In that letter it becomes clear than the state of not being chosen is not permanent.
perhaps…just maybe…all of humanity’s sins are already forgiven in Christ and all human beings are already reconciled to God even if they are unaware of it. We read in 2 Corinthians 5:19 that “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;” and that the veil which obscures one’s realization of what they have is removed through faith in Jesus. In 2 Corinthians 4:4 we read “the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”
Dare we believe this…dare we ?.