The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why do UR's change the meaning of "Aionion"?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#258

I know what you mean, there are a lot of posts. I always end up missing some… :smiley:
Anyway, i think this explains it pretty well. Got it from the link i posted down below.

"The Bible is clear that all people are God’s creation (Colossians 1:16), and that God loves the entire world (John 3:16), but only those who are born again are children of God (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10).

In Scripture, the lost are never referred to as children of God. Ephesians 2:3 tells us that before we were saved we were “by nature objects of wrath.” Romans 9:8 says that “it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.” Instead of being born as God’s children, we are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God’s enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8). Jesus said, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me” (John 8:42). Then a few verses later in John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they “belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire.” The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.”

We become children of God when we are saved because we are adopted into God’s family through our relationship with Jesus Christ (Galatians 4:5-6; Ephesians 1:5). This can be clearly seen in verses like Romans 8:14-17: “…because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, ‘Abba, Father.’ The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.” Those who are saved are children “of God through faith in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:26) because God has “predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will” (Ephesians 1:5)."

SOURCE: gotquestions.org/all-God-children.html

#259

Aaron, you might disagree with Sherman’s use of the word if you choose, however then you side against the writers of scripture, because they don’t scruple to apply phobos to a righteous attitude toward God:

Luk 1:50 And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.

Act 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Act 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified ; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied .

Act 19:17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified .

2Cr 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

2Cr 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed , not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Sonia

#260

Sonia

I don’t deny "phobos"fear can be used for godly reverence fear. I’m certainly not siding against the translators of the scriptures.
Phobos fear lies between delilia, cowardice, and eulbeia religious reverence fear. So phobos fear will be interpreted according to the context of the passage and chapter. Lets look at 1John 4:18

1 John 4:18
Young’s Literal Translation
18 fear is not in the love, but the perfect love doth cast out the fear,** because the fear hath punishment**, and he who is fearing hath not been made perfect in the love;

KJV
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear:** because fear hath torment** . He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

I don’t see anything in this passage to indicate the fear being used has anything to do with a godly reverence fear or God using fear to correct anyone.

The verse starts out by indicating fear has no place in love. ( obviously this is not talking about reverence fear) 1 john 4:17 states that bold confidence based on love, cannot coexist with fear. Love, when perfected, gives bold confidence and casts out fear.

Fear has punishment. Perfect love is incompatible with such a self-punishing fear. Godly fear of offending God is quite distinct from slavish fear of consciously deserved punishment. The latter fear is natural to us all until love casts it out. “Men’s states vary: one is without fear and love; another, with fear without love; another, with fear and love; another, without fear with love”

In conclusion, 1 John 4:18 contextually **is no way no how **referencing about godly reverence fear but fear of terror or consciously derserving punishment.This verse has nothing to do with God imposing any kind of punishment. God does not use fear to punish anyone. This fear is produced by a lack of being perfected in love. :smiley:

reference Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown.

#261

Yes, corrective punishment. That’s the only kind God gives. :slight_smile:

#262

:confused: :confused: :confused: Caroleem, why do you make such comments when this verse has nothing to do about God giving corrective punishment? Did you read the entire post?

#263

Here ya Go, roof

#264

I read it. And I’m just saying that God does not impose punishment on people to torment them for the sake of tormenting them. Its always corrective in nature.

#265

This verse has nothing to do with God imposing any kind of punishment. God does not use fear to punish anyone. This fear is produced by a lack of being perfected in love. :unamused:

#266

Okay that makes sense now. Actually, that’s what i always thought it meant. In other words when one feels fear, its tormenting…and that it has nothing to do with fearing God’s punishment on you. Is that right? okay, now i confused myself… :laughing:

#267

In the American King James version it says…

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.

It makes more sense as ‘torment’ then punishment. Then what you’re saying Revival and what i also agreed with now makes more sense. :slight_smile:

#268

Yaaaaaaaay! Hallelujah! Indeed, Caroleem, indeed! :laughing:

#269

:mrgreen:

#270

You do realize that kolasis is used only twice in the NT. Here in 1 John 4:18 and in Matt 25:46 and they both are contextually used the same way.

Matt 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

#271

For the word “punishment”? Because the American King James version uses the word “torment”. So which is it? torment or punishment?

#272

I just wonder why they never used this word in all those places: concordances.org/greek/126.htm

Granted, considering that it was used in Jude 1:6, where he first says eternal, and then says “until judgment”, I’d say eternities aren’t a very stable concept in the Bible.

#273

The original word, here translated punishment, means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament, 1 John 4:18, “Fear hath torment.” The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used, Acts 4:21; 2 Peter 2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, torment, suffering, punishment.

reference Barnes

#274

Kolasis is a pretty varied word: concordances.org/greek/2851.htm

“chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation. [P]roperly, punishment that “fits” (matches) the one punished (R. Trench); torment from living in the dread of upcoming judgment from shirking one’s duty (cf. WS at 1 Jn 4:18).”

Acts 4:21, 2 Peter 2:9, what do you draw your conclusions from? It seems to refer to simply punishment, possibly corrective, and there’s nothing “absolute suffering” about it.

Here’s one for you: concordances.org/greek/1557.htm

It’s referred to quite a few times, in fact. There are plenty of words for vengeful punishment. Vengeful punishment is often used in the context where God is promising retribution for the sake of the persecuted (in fact, for the sake of the persecuted, not God himself.

#275

Bird

Contextually kolasis punishment or torment is used the same way in both scriptures where it appears in the NT.

Matt 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life (aionios) eternal.

Those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that the life of those who are saved will one day end. Otherwise both the punishment and the life are the same duration. There is nothing contexual in this verse that would make the punishment not the same duration as the life. (which is without end)

#276

Well, we aren’t talking about whether it’s punishment, we’re talking about the purpose of the punishment.

#277

Bird

Contextually kolasis punishment or torment is used the same way in both scriptures where it appears in the NT.

Matt 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life (aionios) eternal.

Those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that the life of those who are saved will one day end. Otherwise both the punishment and the life are the same duration. There is nothing contexual in this verse that would make the punishment not the same duration as the life. (which is without end)