The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why do UR's change the meaning of "Aionion"?

Yes, corrective punishment. That’s the only kind God gives. :slight_smile:

:confused: :confused: :confused: Caroleem, why do you make such comments when this verse has nothing to do about God giving corrective punishment? Did you read the entire post?

Here ya Go, roof

I read it. And I’m just saying that God does not impose punishment on people to torment them for the sake of tormenting them. Its always corrective in nature.

This verse has nothing to do with God imposing any kind of punishment. God does not use fear to punish anyone. This fear is produced by a lack of being perfected in love. :unamused:

Okay that makes sense now. Actually, that’s what i always thought it meant. In other words when one feels fear, its tormenting…and that it has nothing to do with fearing God’s punishment on you. Is that right? okay, now i confused myself… :laughing:

In the American King James version it says…

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.

It makes more sense as ‘torment’ then punishment. Then what you’re saying Revival and what i also agreed with now makes more sense. :slight_smile:

Yaaaaaaaay! Hallelujah! Indeed, Caroleem, indeed! :laughing:

:mrgreen:

You do realize that kolasis is used only twice in the NT. Here in 1 John 4:18 and in Matt 25:46 and they both are contextually used the same way.

Matt 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

For the word “punishment”? Because the American King James version uses the word “torment”. So which is it? torment or punishment?

I just wonder why they never used this word in all those places: concordances.org/greek/126.htm

Granted, considering that it was used in Jude 1:6, where he first says eternal, and then says “until judgment”, I’d say eternities aren’t a very stable concept in the Bible.

The original word, here translated punishment, means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament, 1 John 4:18, “Fear hath torment.” The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used, Acts 4:21; 2 Peter 2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, torment, suffering, punishment.

reference Barnes

Kolasis is a pretty varied word: concordances.org/greek/2851.htm

“chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation. [P]roperly, punishment that “fits” (matches) the one punished (R. Trench); torment from living in the dread of upcoming judgment from shirking one’s duty (cf. WS at 1 Jn 4:18).”

Acts 4:21, 2 Peter 2:9, what do you draw your conclusions from? It seems to refer to simply punishment, possibly corrective, and there’s nothing “absolute suffering” about it.

Here’s one for you: concordances.org/greek/1557.htm

It’s referred to quite a few times, in fact. There are plenty of words for vengeful punishment. Vengeful punishment is often used in the context where God is promising retribution for the sake of the persecuted (in fact, for the sake of the persecuted, not God himself.

Bird

Contextually kolasis punishment or torment is used the same way in both scriptures where it appears in the NT.

Matt 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life (aionios) eternal.

Those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that the life of those who are saved will one day end. Otherwise both the punishment and the life are the same duration. There is nothing contexual in this verse that would make the punishment not the same duration as the life. (which is without end)

Well, we aren’t talking about whether it’s punishment, we’re talking about the purpose of the punishment.

Bird

Contextually kolasis punishment or torment is used the same way in both scriptures where it appears in the NT.

Matt 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life (aionios) eternal.

Those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that the life of those who are saved will one day end. Otherwise both the punishment and the life are the same duration. There is nothing contexual in this verse that would make the punishment not the same duration as the life. (which is without end)

The very first definition of kolasis means corrective.
searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/v … umber=2851

Others say …

  1. to lop or prune, as trees and wings
  2. to curb, check, restrain
  3. to chastise, correct, punishment
  4. to cause to be punished

We just saw in 1John 4:18 what kolasis punishment that fear caused.(torment) The meaning is determined by the context of the verse, Caroleem.

Matt 25:46 could easily be read like this:

And these shall go away into without end punishment: but the righteous into life without end.

The UR’s want the verse to read like this:

And these shall go away into long lasting correction: but the righteous into life without end.

UR’s want to put a time limit on the punishment while the life is without end. But there is no contexual ground to do this. Those who argue that the punishment in the lake of fire for the wicked will one day end, must also argue that the life of those who are saved will one day end. Otherwise both the punishment and the life are the same duration.