The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why do UR's change the meaning of "Aionion"?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#241

1 O LORD, you have searched me and known me!
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
3 You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
5 You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.

7 Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
9 If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,”
12 even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.

13 For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.a
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.

David was not born again (at the time of writing this psalm) as you’ve said Revival, he was waiting for the better promise right? Here he writes this psalm and says that God made him, yes thats right his sin/death nature man. God makes the old man and is father of the old man. He is also father of the new man.

“Boom, boom, boom, another one bites the dust”

#242

Actually, this kind of theology might lead some really interesting places. For example:

Then Moses said to the LORD, “Please, Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither recently nor in time past, nor since You have spoken to Your servant; for I am slow of speech and slow of tongue.” The LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? Now then go, and I, even I, will be with your mouth, and teach you what you are to say.”

So, God made the mouth of fallen man, but no other part of him. :wink:

#243

Let me splain you through this… God created Adam. Every human being is a descendant of Adam which makes God the Creator of man. I deny that the sin nature originates from God. Therefore I deny God procreates mankind in his fallen state. God is the Creator of all human beings( because we are descendants of Adam and Eve) but He does not procreate humans with sin death natures man does that. Comprende senor? :smiley:

#244

Yet God placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. He knew Adam and Eve would fall. If He didn’t want them to sin/fall, he would have not placed that tree there. God planned it all along. :open_mouth: God isn’t a fool, He knows exactly what He’s doing and He is in perfect control. :wink: Yet you and others who think like you seem to believe that some how God lost control. His experiment went awry and Satan will now get the best of God’s creation! Arrgh! If only Eve didn’t listen to the serpent…yet God was the one who set up the whole scenario. Perhaps He wanted Adam and Eve to fall… :nerd:

#245

“Procreate” and “create” are two different ideas. Jesse “procreated” David, but David very clearly believed God had created him, and not just indirectly by creating Adam and Eve–but, rather, was intimately involved in the process of his physical creation in his mother’s womb. And God even claims that He is the one that makes people deaf and mute.

#246

Not quite sure what that has to do with the question :question: but Revival, did your mother not teach you that it’s rude to ask a lady her age? :astonished:

#247

Its only rude to ask a lady how much she weighs. :laughing: Age is no big deal unless you make it a big deal. :wink:

#248

Tsk tsk, manners! :mrgreen:

#249

Yes, indeed, “procreate and create” are two different ideas. Jesus and Adam were the only people (at the time) that God procreated in Luke 3:22-38. The in between people were procreated by man. :smiley: God did create David indirectly by Adam. God did create the process of his creation in his mother’s womb, indirectly through Eve.

Snitzel, How can God give death? Is He the author of death? Can God create death? NO! If God cannot give death but only give life at what point after the baby is born does that baby come to the place of needing salvation? If God can only give spiritual life at what point did the baby die spiritually?

The sin nature originates from man and is reproduced through man. Spiritual life originates from God and can only be reproduced through God.

God does not become your Father until you are reproduced through His seed and receive His nature. 1 Peter 1:23. AKA Born Again. :smiley:

#250

It seems you might have missed this Revival, not having responded to it.

#251

Sherman

I agree that there is a healthy reverence fear of God, but I disagree with you applying that healthy Godly fear to the “fear” being described in 1 John 4:18. The Greek word used in this verse for fear is “Phobos” meaning terror. The same word is used in Matt 14:26. So, the fear being described in this verse is one of “terror” and not a godly reverence fear. This type of fear brings torment and not corrective punishment as you claim. As far as Rev 22:18-19 goes that applies to adding or subtracting words and also making verses say what they don’t say. :wink:

#252

We were discussing the word kolasis, but anyhow. The word fear, phobos, can be either positive or negative. It’s an emotion. The context of the passage determines the authors meaning, not how it is used in a different passage. 1 Jn. 4.18 is addressed to believers and is speaking of a healthy fear we should have, a fear of God our father and a fear of the consequences of sin. If we are perfected in love, then we do not have fear, why? Because we’re living right, doing right, not sinning against God, ourselves, or others. But if we’re not perfected in love and are sinning against God, ourselves, and others then we have fear. The more we sin, the more we fear. 1 John 4:18 is an admonition for believers to live right and warns of the consequences of sin for us - kolasis, which can be, and I believe should be understood as both “corrective punishment” and “torment”. Sin results in fear, torment, and if we persist in it, corrective punishment from our Father. The more we sin, the more we need to and will fear - whether we are believers or not.

Concerning Rev. 22:18-19, Jesus was actually warning of what John wrote in Revelations. Technically, this verse does not speak to other writings. And you originally referenced this as a warning to me for using the word “involves” in 1 Jn.4.18, which I simply quoted from the NKJV. So you were wrong in implying that I was mistranslating or adding to the scripture that I quoted. Now you can either own that mistake and the attitude behind it and repent and learn from it, or continue in it and become more fearful, as 1 Jn. 4:18 says. And btw, I find that when others irrationally accuse others of things they are not doing, it’s because they are doing exactly that. To say it plainly, the reason you accuse me of misinterpreting 1 Jn. 4.18 is because that’s exactly what you are doing and you’re trying to cover that up for yourself. Let’s look at the passage again.

17 Love has been perfected among **us **in this: that **we **may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are **we **in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 **We **love Him because He first loved us.

John is addressing believers, chastizing believers for not loving one another, for continuing to sin, and warning of the negative results of sin in our lives. To take this and say it doesn’t apply to us is to not only misinterpret it, but it nullifies it of its power to call us to righteousness. Sin has negative results whether we’re believers or not, in fact, “especially” if we are believers because we should know better and we have the power of the Spirit in us to not sin.

#253

Sherman

I agree to disagree with your comments. I have no desire to keep beating a dead horse with you. :smiley:

#254

Aaron,
It’s interesting and rather telling that you won’t even acknowledge that you were wrong to accuse Sherman of adding words to scripture! Wow! Doesn’t God have something to say about false accusations?

Pro 19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and [he that] speaketh lies shall perish.

The fact that you are not even apologetic makes me think you are not really concerned with truth.

Sonia

#255

Hello, all-
Did anyone address the verse in which our Lord tells His enemies that their father is…the devil!
Forgive me if you have already dealt, I’m not wanting to wade through all the posts, lol!
roof

#256

I did and of course it was rejected. :sunglasses:

#257

Aionion simply means “of age”, “having qualities of an age”, from what I could derive. That it’s meaning, really. It may or may not mean eternal depending on the context simply for lack of a better word, but it doesn’t care a specific meaning of eternal anymore than “age long” does in our language.

Wow, yikes. I reaaaaalllly need to learn Greek.

#258

I know what you mean, there are a lot of posts. I always end up missing some… :smiley:
Anyway, i think this explains it pretty well. Got it from the link i posted down below.

"The Bible is clear that all people are God’s creation (Colossians 1:16), and that God loves the entire world (John 3:16), but only those who are born again are children of God (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10).

In Scripture, the lost are never referred to as children of God. Ephesians 2:3 tells us that before we were saved we were “by nature objects of wrath.” Romans 9:8 says that “it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.” Instead of being born as God’s children, we are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God’s enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8). Jesus said, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me” (John 8:42). Then a few verses later in John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they “belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire.” The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.”

We become children of God when we are saved because we are adopted into God’s family through our relationship with Jesus Christ (Galatians 4:5-6; Ephesians 1:5). This can be clearly seen in verses like Romans 8:14-17: “…because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, ‘Abba, Father.’ The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.” Those who are saved are children “of God through faith in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:26) because God has “predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will” (Ephesians 1:5)."

SOURCE: gotquestions.org/all-God-children.html

#259

Aaron, you might disagree with Sherman’s use of the word if you choose, however then you side against the writers of scripture, because they don’t scruple to apply phobos to a righteous attitude toward God:

Luk 1:50 And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.

Act 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Act 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified ; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied .

Act 19:17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified .

2Cr 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

2Cr 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed , not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Sonia

#260

Sonia

I don’t deny "phobos"fear can be used for godly reverence fear. I’m certainly not siding against the translators of the scriptures.
Phobos fear lies between delilia, cowardice, and eulbeia religious reverence fear. So phobos fear will be interpreted according to the context of the passage and chapter. Lets look at 1John 4:18

1 John 4:18
Young’s Literal Translation
18 fear is not in the love, but the perfect love doth cast out the fear,** because the fear hath punishment**, and he who is fearing hath not been made perfect in the love;

KJV
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear:** because fear hath torment** . He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

I don’t see anything in this passage to indicate the fear being used has anything to do with a godly reverence fear or God using fear to correct anyone.

The verse starts out by indicating fear has no place in love. ( obviously this is not talking about reverence fear) 1 john 4:17 states that bold confidence based on love, cannot coexist with fear. Love, when perfected, gives bold confidence and casts out fear.

Fear has punishment. Perfect love is incompatible with such a self-punishing fear. Godly fear of offending God is quite distinct from slavish fear of consciously deserved punishment. The latter fear is natural to us all until love casts it out. “Men’s states vary: one is without fear and love; another, with fear without love; another, with fear and love; another, without fear with love”

In conclusion, 1 John 4:18 contextually **is no way no how **referencing about godly reverence fear but fear of terror or consciously derserving punishment.This verse has nothing to do with God imposing any kind of punishment. God does not use fear to punish anyone. This fear is produced by a lack of being perfected in love. :smiley:

reference Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown.