The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why do UR's change the meaning of "Aionion"?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#161

Revival, this is what you picture, right?
This is God’s “justice”…right? —>>> i39.tinypic.com/21j23gp.jpg

From Isaiah 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

There’s the term “brimstone” as describing the Lord’s breath…

I got this excerpt below from this site here: scaredofhell.com/thelakeoffire.html
Good site, explains a lot. You should check it out.

Try reading this Revival, it goes on to explain:

"The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word ‘brimstone’ or sulphur defines
the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated ‘brimstone’ is exactly the same word THEION which
means ‘divine.’ (emphasis mine) Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to
fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In
Homer’s Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from
THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-
English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a ‘lake of fire and brimstone’
would mean a ‘lake of divine purification.’ The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and
divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning
of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it.”

Charles Pridgeon; Is Hell Eternal, or Will God’s Plan Fail; pgs 116 & 117.

Here, Brother Pridgeon makes a vital point: brimstone is for purification, not punishment. This thought went
unquestioned until the Dark Ages. His purpose was understood to purify and consecrate, not separate and
punish. This Lake of Divine Fire will purify, refine, restore and consecrate til there is nothing left that is contrary to
Him.

An interesting note here, going along with the train of thought is that the Greek word for fire is pur, and is where
we get such words as pure, purify and purgatory. Fire in this sense is for purification, not destruction."

And from The New Testament Greek Lexicon
Definition of theion is…
brimstone: divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease

:slight_smile: Sure is a far cry then those horrific photos…ya think? :wink:

#162

It was actually on an online board where I was debating the Atheist along with several others - a Joyce Meyer facebook board, before they were removed (as all discussion boards were from facebook due to updates).

He didn’t convert, but assented as per his militant Atheistic stance that it seemed to him as if I had merely invented the perfect Father-figure, and those where his words, not mine.

#163

Cited from the KJV, and my translation from the Greek [Lefein’s version: LV] when given;

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

And I if ever I be lifted (exalted) out of the earth, I shall drag all toward Myself.

κἀγὼ ἐὰν ὑψωθῶ ἐκ τῆς γῆς, πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν.

(John 12:32)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(2 Peter 3:9)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

(1 Timothy 2:3-6)

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life…

(John 14:6)

For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

(Romans 14:7-12)

For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

(Luke 20:38)

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

(1 Corinthians 15:22)

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(Philippians 2:10-11)

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

(1 Corinthians 12:3)

It seems to me, that from this handful of Biblical verses, God makes the promise loud and clear, to the discredit of your idea that he doesn’t, and especially to the discredit of your statement that it is nowhere stated in the Bible. Christ’s salvation involves the corrective perfecting of the saved - and from what I can see, God is in the blatant business of saving and correcting everyone.

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

(Ephesians 4:6)

Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

(Malachi 2:10)

His Sons? Have we not all one Father?

From the Bible.

#164

Dont mean to go a bit OT, but doesn’t that contradict?

#165

I would say it is a manner of context in some ways. Christ’s statement was against the Sadducees (who believed you ceased to exist when you die, and in addition believed in no resurrection of the dead) is that God is not the god of the dead; those who cease to exist, or no longer exist. But I would also take it a step further - though Paul states God is the god of the dead, and the living; those physically dead and physically alive, he is also god of those who are spiritually so; but those who are dead, physically or spiritually - are not dead in that they have ceased to exist, and will not resurrect or be greeted with an afterlife. God is still their God, because they still exist.

The real kicker, that I would also like to add, is that the Bible can be a bit witty at times. Consider;

“that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”

May imply thematically, there shall be no dead, but all shall live. At the end sum of it, the Biblical meta-narrative seems to present that “God is the Lord and God of All, he is not the Lord and God of the Dead, therefore All must live, or be made alive.”

If it is a contradiction, then the only thing we have to worry about is Biblical inerrancy being invalidated, but not Biblical accuracy. I however take it as confirmation that Death shall be destroyed, and that those who are dead must be made alive by God, who is their God and Lord; unto whom all live.

#166

Yeah, look at me making stuff up and misrepresenting what you say. Revival, if you don’t believe URs are unsaved and, if you don’t want your views on this misrepresented, then you should think before you type things like the sentence above. I’m happy to find out you didn’t mean it the way it sounded. Glad we cleared that up.

As to the other, if you read the posts, I made it clear that I don’t think you literally believe in works based salvation. Rather, that works based salvation is the logical conclusion of you equating the sheep/goat judgement with being thrown into the LOF forever or going to heaven forever. I questioned the consistency of your position, not your actual beliefs

#167

I get it now Lefein , thanks for the explanation. :slight_smile:

#168

God is not the Father of every person but the Father of all believers. John 1:12-13; Gal 3:26; Eph 2:19 1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 5:1. You have taken every verse above out of context as you did with Eph 4:6 :unamused:

Gal 3:26
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 12:5-8 totally refutes your erroneous belief of Christ lovingly correcting everyone. The Lord corrects sons not unbelievers or bastards. The Bible says the exact opposite!

#169

To have a rude awakening at the judgment seat… I meant to find out my view of it to be true and to find out your theology to be false. I never hinted that UR’s are not saved but it is possible for any Christian to be blotted out of the BOL. Rev 3:5.

#170

That may not have been your intent, but can you seriously not see why you would come off that way? Particularly with the comment about being in the LOF if we’re not corrected in this life. Anyway, I’m very happy to know you don’t think of us in that way. It’s good to know.

I would try to engage your comments on context from the previous post, but I’m tired and bored now, so I’m going to bed instead :wink:

#171

Sister

God bless and good night. :wink:

#172

Revival, did you not see my post up there in purple? Why do you seem to blatantly ignore me or anyone who tries to show you some possible evidence of UR? Did you even read all that i had there? Are you purposely ignoring how scripture in original Greek is interpreted? You ignore it like it’s automatically wrong. :confused: Are you so educated on the original Greek and what words mean that you KNOW this is totally false?

Also, did you even look at the pics i posted? Why the silence on my post?

And your statement here:

To me that sounds like you’re saying that WE as UR’s are not saved…by saying that we ARE going to have a rude awakening if WE don’t receive correction before we die that we will be thrown into a literal lake of fire forever. :confused: You must think we are not saved and that we are sending people to hell by our teachings. :confused: Is that why you are even here to begin with? To set us straight?

#173

Paul says in Acts 17

26 And He has made from one blood[a] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.

If all are offsprings of God(because He created all of us) Therefore we are all (believers or unbeliever) the children of God. Most do not understand this yet. But God will not fail His children, in this age or the next.

#174

amen

#175

Amen, good sir!

Revival:

The Bible says he is the Father of every person, and says it directly in Malachi, and certainly in Paul’s statement that there is one God and Father of all.

John 1:12-13 - doesn’t refute the all-fatherhood of God, especially given that every knee shall bow, every tongue confess and everyone by the victorious will of God (nothing will defeat His will) will come to the knowledge of his Son, The Truth. Also, everyone has been given to Christ.

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
(John 17:2)

All have been given to him, that he should give life to all.

Galatians 3:26 - does not refute the all-fatherhood of God either. Malachi is quite plain and blunt, as well as Paul, in saying we all have one Father.

The Greek says; For ye all are sons of God through the faith in Christ.

And shortly after in Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
(Galatians 4:5-7)

All are children of God, it is believers who receive the “adoption of sons”, which is nothing like adoption today, the theology of being adopted into God’s family the same way orphans are adopted into the family of a stranger is an inaccurate theology based on an inaccurate understanding of “adoption” as understood in ancient context; a context which is essentially that of a child (who is already part of the family) coming of age, wherein he becomes a co-ruler of the household.

Galatians has nothing to do with people becoming “children” of God, but rather it has everything to do with children of God coming of age through the faith in Christ. An image which is supported by Revelation’s imagery of ruling priestly kings.

Ephesians 2:19 - does not refute the all-fatherhood of God either. The immediate context is dealing with, namely, the Gentiles in contrast to the Hebrews as seen immediately by the context of the preceding verses;

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(Ephesians 2:12-15)

Also, I could (and will) interpret the theme of stranger-children directly back to the narrative presented by the parable of The Prodigal Son, and previous to that, Israel itself; strangers in a strange land coming home to the promised land and constantly in rebellion - but always welcomed back with open arms and royal-reinstatement. Children who have gone off in rebellion and become strangers in a strange land, feeding off the husk given to swine, children flung into poverty far away from home as exiles by their own causing. The prodigal son was still the father’s child, who was dead but now is now alive, once was lost but now is found.

1 Peter 1:23 - does not refute the all-fatherhood of God either. Being born again from above does not entail that one was not a child of God from the first. It entails that one is born again from above via Spirit, in contrast to their first Adamite birth via the flesh. I would likewise contend that using 1 Peter 1:23 as a proof-text against Malachi and Paul’s statements regarding the fatherhood of all, which are direct statements of God’s fatherhood of all, is a weak gambit.

1 John 5:1 - does not refute the all-fatherhood of God either. Firstly, 1 John 5:1 deals with the immediate context of loving your brother, as seen by the previous verse; 1 John 4:20-21

*If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. *

Which then continues on to 1 John 5:1 *Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. *

In short, the immediate context deals with the same issue presented by the questioner who asked Jesus “who is my neighbor?” when commanded to by Christ to “love thy neighbor”. The issue here, is “love thy brother” and the immediate answer to “who is my brother?” is “thy brother is whosoever believeth…”. The context is not a blanket statement negating the childship of humanity minus Christians, it is a statement dealing directly with the issue of familial issues in the Church, and love therein as referring to Christ’s commandment “Love one another as I have loved you”. 1 John 5:1 therefore, is not a statement against the childship of humanity, nor and especially is it a statement against the all-fatherhood of God. In context it is dealing with the issue of familial love between believers in the Church - which is all too often an issue in churches, especially now in these days.

Who ever loves God, loves his brother also, who ever believes that Jesus is the Christ, is born of God (is one of your brothers): and everyone that loves Him that begat (God, the begatter of the brother), loves him that is begotten of Him (loves the brother).

In other words, love your brother - he is your brother - if you don’t, then you don’t love God.

Now if you want to take seriously the usage of the verse to entail that not all are the children of the Father, then I shall insist that you take the rest of the verse along with it; that is to say, if the verse entails the negation of childship outside of believers, then the failure to love your brother is also a negation of the believer’s childship.

Also, in case it is still an issue;

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
(Luke 3:38)

The genealogy as presented by Luke is quite clear. Adam is considered the son of God, if only by virtue of having been created by God. Adam - the man who fell. Adam, the man by whom Sin and Death entered the world. Everyone who is born is an Adamite, either literally for figuratively. Everyone therefore is a descendent of Adam the son of God, a member of a familial line originating in God - which is undeniable in the face of Luke 3:38. By reason of this familial line, all of humanity are the children of God, in the same exact way that all Hebrews are the children of Abraham centuries after.

We are all descended from God, by virtue of being descended from Adam, who was descended from God. Especially we are descended from God by virtue of the last Adam (Christ) who is The Son of God. By Adam we are children of God, by Christ we are Sons and Daughters of God.

No I haven’t. You’re merely asserting that I did. Prove it. Back it up.

Every child must come of age and become sons.

But just in case you’ve decided that God will not in fact, lovingly correct all humanity; I must appeal to the fact that God will not endure sin to last forever, God is justice, therefore he must correct all sin wherever it is found, whether it be in sinner or saint. He must, and will, correct it all. He will get rid of it, end it; put it away from the sinner and saint and from His presence. If sin continues forever, then God must endure sin forever; and by enduring it forever and not correcting it wherever it is found, God will have failed to put an end to it.

God hates sin, God will not allow sin to continue ceaselessly. Therefore God will correct it, as per his nature as Justice; wherever it is found, whenever it is found.

#176

Lefein

For you to believe God is the Father of all humans is simply astonishing. It is obvious you do not fully understand what happened in the fall of Gen 3. Most kids are taught this in in Sunday school. The Bible distinguishes who the children of wrath and the children of God are. All the other verses were sufficient to prove that one is only a child of God by faith in Jesus Christ but here is more proof, Lefein

John 8:41-47
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not,** because ye are not of God.**

Jesus says these people are not from God neither is God their Father! But Jesus is not done. He even goes as far to tell them who their father is, the DEVIL! I know the devil did not procreate these people but Jesus said that because they shared the same sin or spiritual death nature as the devil himself. You must have the life of God or his nature in your spirit to be his offspring! :astonished:

Btw, Eph 2:19 Paul is talking to believers in the Ephesus church telling them they are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God! They were strangers and foreigners to God before they became saints and fellow citizens of the household of God! God considers you alienated and an enemy of His until you receive the reconciliation from Him by faith through Christ! Col 1:23. Not everyone does this or will do this! :unamused:

This is way off topic and needs to be brought back to the OP.

#177

Lefein,

Arguing that God is the Father of fallen humanity won’t get anywhere; Revival won’t even acknowledge that God is our Creator as fallen humans.

#178

Snitzel, if you believe as Lefein does you are in error, too, sir. You have to be born into the family of God. :wink:

Lets bring it back to the OP.

#179

Been there… done that… OP is a brick wall :laughing: :wink: just like this issue. :open_mouth:

#180

revival do you think that those people Jesus said were sons of the devil actually are fathered by the devil?