Jesus didn’t die for them, and (i suppose) every sin is infinitely offensive for God
what do you think ?
What do you think demons are, and what does Scripture describe them as?
Maybe everyone else here knows this is a trap, but I’ll bite.
HELL is “Forever” in the sense that the person (Saul, or Simon) that is being purged is CHANGED forever, purified in fire, until the person GOD created and demands them to be (Paul, Peter) emerges. Thus we read verses saying GOD’s enemies are “destroyed”. And we read that the consequence and of HELL are “Forever” - as indeed we hope the destruction of our selfishness, our pride, our self-righteousness, our “Saul”, is permanent in our own case.
My reading is that Demons are “persons” - self-aware, autonomous thinking beings. I think they are created by God. And I don’t believe Hell is retributive or sadistic. So I do not believe ANY persons created by GOD can sustain their rebellion beyond GOD’s power, or beyond his will.
Their story is intertwined in our story, but it is a different story. So i do not know, nor do i believe anyone KNOWS (save THE LORD). But my own humble knowledge of my Master leads me to believe that to THEIR Master they will stand or fall, and GOD is able to make them stand.
No it is not a trap,
a lot of universalists (i think) believe that sin is an unlimited problem (i don’t think so) , if these universalist are right demons should be in the lake of fire forever
thank you for your help
What are demons.
aren’t they fallen angels ? (i think demons and fallen angels are the same thing)
No such thing as a Celestial Angel that has fallen, except in myths.
Titus 1:14-15
pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the merely human commands of those who reject the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
2 Peter 2:10-11 Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord.
Angel means messenger. A messenger is a title or office, and this office is filled by men and women.
The only fallen messengers ever written in Scripture are men and women, namely of Israel who was entrusted with the oracles of God, but failed to deliver them as they were supposed to.
I’m not sure you’re right about this, AU. Granted that scripture may be personalizing evil as Satan (or “the adversary”) and demons, etc. Nevertheless, I believe there is plenty of suggestion regarding angels as celestial beings. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I do wonder how you can just put your opinion out there with such a degree of apparent certainty.
As for demons, again there’s been a lot of speculation as to what they are and where they came from. Some say they’re fallen angels, Erwan, and others believe they are the spirits/souls of the inhabitants of a pre-Adamic creation. That one really takes a lot of speculation. But as far as I can see, scripture doesn’t tell us much about demons. If the pantheon of evil consists of actual personal beings (which it may), these beings are created and are not co-eternal with God.
IF, as I say, they are personal beings, they are created, belong to God, and I believe scripture is clear that they will be redeemed in time.
If Abba is not willing that any should perish, why would He be willing to lose ANY of His creation. Isn’t He powerful enough to save ALL?
Love and blessings,
Cindy
Many many years of research on the subject coupled with personal experience in union with the revelation of universal salvation. I speak confidently that there is no Celestial being who has ever fallen, including ‘Satan’ the Adversary] is actually from earth and ‘raised’ himself to heaven only to be thrown back down) .
Isaiah 14:12-15
Take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say…{}
You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. ‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’
“Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit.
“How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!
I am not at all discounting any spiritual existence or power, I am only saying that there is no such thing as any Celestial Being who has ever fallen from Heaven.
**
Matthew 18:10**
I tell you that in heaven their angels continually view the face of My Father in heaven.
AU, what exactly do you make of death, without fallen angels? Death is the last enemy of God and absolutely pre-dated humankind. It seems to me that death, the last enemy of God, must therefore have been introduced by a non-human, fallen will or by God (in which case, I could no longer call him good for creating death or rational for creating his own enemy). Or do you think the last enemy to be only spiritual death (and therefore physical death is not explicitly an enemy of God)? Thoughts?
i don’t believe in demons as entities (though i am only agnostic, not a full nonbeliever…it’s a big universe, afterall), but i do believe fully that if they exist, God will show Himself to be the Lord by defeating even their evil. and i mean this in the sense of restoration, not destruction/torment.
I understand where you are coming from. Where do you get such knowledge, most definitely not from the Scriptures, most likely tradition.
1 Samuel 16:14,15
But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an** evil spirit** from the Lord tormented and troubled him.
Saul’s servants said to him, Behold, an evil spirit from God torments you.
Judges 9:23
And God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem
1 Peter 5:8
Be alert and of sober mind.** Your** enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
Whose enemy is the devil?
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Whose enemy? God’s or man’s?
Well since death is not an enemy of God in the first place.
I know these seem like simple answers to a complex dilemma of the origin of evil, etc. though one who is truly a universalist concerning salvation of all mankind in God, will realize everything created was created by God in the first place.
Thanks AU. No, it seems to be a necessary deduction if we are to say that God is perfectly loving. It’s also helpful, though not intrinsically right, that it’s tradition. I’m not opposed to something simply because it’s tradition. That’s just nonsensical douchery.
I’m not entirely sure why a “true” universalist needs to realize that God created evil.
I wasn’t meaning to offend. I was stating an obvious statement as a universalist, you should know that all mankind is going to be saved or is already saved from the very beginning and therefore all things including evil has always been in the ontologically GOOD plan of a LOVING God in the first place and therefore He is the Creator of all things (even of those things that you don’t call things, yes evil is a thing).
Dictionary definition: THING
“Anything that is or may become an object of thought”
I know evil is, and may become an object of thought as well and therefore a thing.
Ephesians 3:8-9
Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
Colossians 1:16-17
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Lastly, you believe God is not all loving simply because you suffer in this physical existence?
1 Corinthians 15:19
If only for this [present] life we have hope in Christ, [then] we are of all people most to be pitied [because our Gospel is nullified].
Jesus, His apostles, and Christian leaders in the second century all believed in demons as conscious beings.
The scriptures state that ALL things will be reconciled to God. Doesn’t “ALL” include demons as well as Satan, the arch-enemy of our souls?
Here is the way Origen (185-255 A.D.) put it:
The restoration to unity must not be imagined as a sudden happening. Rather it is to be thought of as gradually effected by stages during the passing of countless ages. Little by little and individually the correction and purification will be accomplished. Some will lead the way and climb to the heights with swifter progress, others following right after them; yet others will be far behind. Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders will advance and reconcile themselves to God, who once were enemies; and so at length the last enemy will be reached… De Principiis, III.vi.6
No, Jesus and His apostles believed in evil spirits (They never classified them as conscious beings), and whatever the 2nd Century believed Jesus thought they were is not found in your Origen quote and therefore irrelevant.
AU, from your response “No”, you seem to be saying that Jesus didn’t believe that the evil spirits which he cast out were conscious beings. It must have been difficult for Him not to believe they were conscious, after hearing them speak and make a request — to which He responded.
Now a great herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside, and they begged him, saying, “Send us to the pigs; let us enter them.” So he gave them permission. And the unclean spirits came out, and entered the pigs, and the herd, numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea and were drowned in the sea. (Mark 5:11-13)
No, Jesus knew them as evil spirits or demons. They are not conscious beings, they are spirits and as such explain themselves succinctly. Do you know what the difference between a spirit and a being is?
By the command of Jesus everything in Creation will submit, even though it was not a conscious or not. By His command the storms ceased, would you say the storm was conscious? No. A computer can submit to my commands, does that make the computer conscious? It can even thank me for shutting it down, does that mean it appreciated my ability to shut it down?
What we are talking about is the authority Jesus had over all things while He was here, and our perception anthropomorphizing an object to relate to it and in your error (along with many others) you begin to relate to it as if it were a being (since humans are beings).
Find one Scripture, that demons and evil spirits are beings and you have a fair perception.
Hmm. How do we know for sure they’re not beings? After all, God is spirit also, but He is a being. I’m not so certain we can prove the negative here with regard to demons and evil spirits. Even if scripture doesn’t outright say they are beings, it is possible they are; although it’s also possible they aren’t.
Just thinking “out loud” here…