But the verses about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit also say that the person doesn’t have forgiveness in the age to come either, right?
Mk.3:29 is longer, more specific than Luke 12:10. I believe Luke 12:10 is a shortened version and thus give priority to Mk. 3:29. And Mk.3.29 notes the blasphemer not being forgiven is εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα (in this age) and does not reference the person’s situation in the age to come. Though of course the person is also subjected to **αἰωνίου κρίσεως ** (supernatural judgment/punishment from God).
As long as a person persists in pride like that of the Pharisees, pride that motivated them to reject Jesus as doing miracles by an unholy spirit instead of recognizing that the miracles were done by the Holy Spirit, such a person will remain in their sin, cut off from the forgiveness, grace, and love of God. And ultimately they will be judged by God and revealed for what they are - hypocrites. Pride comes before a fall. God will arrange circumstances to bring such a person to his knees, breaking his pride if he persists in it. And God does this in His love for that person. In His love, God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble!
So, Sherman, you are following Talbott in interpreting aionios as meaning something like “having it’s causal source in God” or something like that?
Hi Sherman, blaspheme is not forgiven in this age, but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit aionios forgiveness has , but is subject to eternal condemnation.
Meaning that in one of the ages to come (after the millennial age, were they are subject to condemnation) they will be forgiven and allowed to enter within the gates of the city.
So in other words they are not forgiven in this age or the age to come, but rather in one of the ages after the millennial age.
In Mk.3:29 “aionios” (an adjective) does not modify “forgiveness” (aphesis); it does not say “*aionios *forgiveness”. Rather it says “forgiveness in this age” (aion, a noun). “aionios” does modify *krisis *(accusation/judgment/condemnation).
The passage is saying that a person who is hardened against the Holy Spirit cannot in this life recieve the forgiveness of sins and actually lives under a sence of judgment and condemnation from God! Those who refuse to accept the truth about their own wickedness will not recieve the forgiveness of their sins and healing of their souls in this life, in this age. Though God forgives them, they cannot recieve such forgiveness for they refuse to acknowledge their need of forgiveness. The first step towards deliverance/forgiveness is recognizing one’s need of deliverance/forgiveness!
The self-righteous and prideful will continue in their bondage to sin until they admit their need of deliverance and forgiveness. And some people are so prideful and self-righteous that they will continue in bondage to sin until they face the Lord in judgment and are forced to face the evil of their own hearts!
Sherman, you are reading something into my post that I never said.
I never said anything about aionios modifying forgiveness.
Aionios is an adjective for aion which means age. And I thought I made this plain when I said
Meaning that in one of the ages to come (after the millennial age, were they are subject to condemnation) they will be forgiven and allowed to enter within the gates of the city.
So in other words they are not forgiven in this age or the age to come, but rather in one of the ages after the millennial age.
Brother I think you are still misunderstanding me, because when I read
The self-righteous and prideful will continue in their bondage to sin until they admit their need of deliverance and forgiveness. And some people are so prideful and self-righteous that they will continue in bondage to sin until they face the Lord in judgment and are forced to face the evil of their own hearts!
I fully agree.
So let me ask you this question: do you believe that in one of the ages to come those who blaspheme will be forgiven and allowed within the gates of the city?
If you believe this then we are mostly on the same page.
I believe *aionios *is an adjective meant to reference that which is spiritual as opposed to physical, that which transcends-time as opposed to that which is temporal, and yes that which is “from God” as opposed to that which is naturally occuring.
In Mk.3:29 *aionios *modifies *krisis *(accusation, judgement, condemnation). People who refuse to recognize their need of forgiveness and deliverance, live under a sense of accusation, condemnation, and judgment from God. And yet God forgives them and loves them, even for resisting the move of His Spirit. And they’ll continue to live under that sense of condemnation until they repent.
Having lived under that sense of condemnation for many years, I understand it. I was once a Pharisee of Pharisees, hardened against God, prideful and self-righteous. BUT the Lord delievered me, revealing to me His love and forgiveness - and revealing to me my pride and self-righteousness. I’ve experienced a little of the judgment of the Lord and it burnt the Hell out of me. It dealt with my pride and self-righteousness. Shoot, I cried for two weeks one time, broken before the Lord because He showed me the evil of my own heart. And all along before that I thought I was a pretty good Christian, living right, loving people and loving God. But boy did He show me!
So I understand this verse from the perspective of one who was hardened by pride and self-rightness, one who was only delivered by the grace of God revealed in Him judging my sin and accepting me anyhow. I understand Paul saying that he was a blasphemer, and yet God saved him, the worst of all sinners - for that’s how I see myself. There is no sin that is so deceptive as religious pride and self-righteousness. Of all the people that Jesus encountered, the few that angered Him were the prideful and self-righteous religious leaders of His day. I’ve felt that anger and heard the words “Woe to you” (Mt.23) and have thankfully come to realize just how decieved I was. The Truth of God has, is, and will burn the Hell from me!
Yes, must have misunderstood you. I thought that’s what you were saying by “aionios forgiveness has”.
Actually, I believe that the person is already forgiven by God, they just will not receive that forgiveness in this life because they refuse to recognize their own need of forgiveness. In the life to come, they will face the truth of God in Judgment, recognize their need, and recieve God’s forgiveness.
As far as multiple ages to come, I don’t know about that. To me, aion and aionios are non-specific words referencing an age, non-specifice period of time, or even that which transcends time. And we are so limited in our understanding of that which is “eternal”, that which transcends time. It’s kinda like two blind men arguing over shades of green (is the paint forest or olive green)!
Yes, mostly on the same page I believe, recognizing that ultimately the person will recognize his/her need of God and recieve forgiveness. And recongizing that this passage is not talking about a specific act that God has decided that He’ll never forgive. God is much more gracious, loving, merciful, and forgiving that we can imagine! Mercy triumphs over judgment! Hallelujah!
Thanks for clarifying what you meant. I’m a little thick-headed, slow to understand, sometimes.
Blessings,
Sherman
Sherman sayeth: “I believe aionios is an adjective meant to reference that which is spiritual as opposed to physical, that which transcends-time as opposed to that which is temporal, and yes that which is “from God” as opposed to that which is naturally occuring.”
Now where it says “eternal sin”, surely sin is not from God, is it? Or is that a translation issue?
It is a spiritual sin as opposed to a physical sin, an abiding sin as opposed to one that is only temporary. Most words have multiple meanings or nuances. Even the word Hell in English can mean 1) conscious unending torture, 2) evil, 3) terrible circumstances, or even just used as 4) an explicative. The context determines which meaning is intended. aionios does have a sence of that which is abiding as opposed to that which is temporary. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is an abiding type of spiritual sin, it is an ongoing hardness against the Holy Spirit that cuts one off from right relationship with God. It’s not merely stealing, or committing adultery - no matter how bad those sins are they are not an abiding hardness towards God. As long as people have such a hardness towards God, they are cut off from the forgiveness, grace, and mercy that God has for them.
Also, which scripture are you speaking of that refers to “eternal sin”?
Mark 3:29 (New International Version)
29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
Sherman we seem to be on the same page with most things here except you have a different view then I do of aionios. I believe aionios is only pertaining to an aion. I’ll start a new thread and give my view there.
Roofus that seems to be a translation made in order to support eternal torment.
The word krisis is always used for judgment, and never once for sin
Hi roofus, as pneuma pointed out, the word that is translated (mistranslated) as “sin” in the NIV here in Mk.3:29 is “krisis” and actually means “accusation, judgment, condemnation”. People who resist the Holy Spirit moving in their lives live under a sense of judgment, condemnation, and accusation for they fail to repent and turn to the Lord for forgiveness. The first step towards deliverance is recognizing that one is in bondage.
Krisis actually means choice of seperation, evaluating what is needed or to be left behind. It is like the 5th definition in which ‘accusation’ and ‘condemnation’ is even used, and it is used out of doctrinal bias, not out of original understanding.
Who ever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of aionios krisis. Paul illustrates these words:
1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
You are not getting that wood, hay and straw back, and you wasted your time building a life which has no relevance when it ends. You will be saved, as all humanity will be saved, but like one through the flames. Meaning literally, that you barely escaped the house with only your life, all your worldly and earlthy posessions whether material or immaterial perishes behind you.
It is likely that this translation was not meant to support eternal torment; rather, it simply reflects the assumed theology of the interpreters. As they studied this passage to interpret it in common English, they interpreted it based on their understanding of the passage which was influenced by their traditional assumed theology. In short, it’s a mistake, not an intentional mistranslation.
If translated by the influence of the traditional theology then is it not translated in order to support eternal torment?
Tomato, Tamato, it is the same thing to me.
It is no different to me then the JW who translate “In the beginning was the word and the word was “A” God” in order to support their theology. It’s adding or taking away from what was really actually said.
Man has handled God word so much that today we cannot really know what God said by a plain reading anymore but must search out everything. Just look at how many different words are used for aionios and aion, Tis why there is so many denomination today that seperate Gods people instead of drawing Gods people together.
Thank God though, we have the Holy Spirit as our teacher and guide. As we seek the Lord and study His Word, He is faithful to open our eyes and heart to truth! Hallelujah!
This blog has blessed me. I believe I have blasphemed through unbelief . I didn’t know I was a Pharisee until The Lotd told me I was a "brood of vipers ". I have gone so deep in the wrong path . Being legalistic and traditional and all that displeases GOD. I am praying that Christ will give me mercy . I pray he will give me faith like Sherman so I can be forgiven . The last 3 month I have lost strength naturally . Spirtually feels like all is gone. and so much more. I am scared really but this testimony has given me hope. I pray Gods will shine and breath in me again . Most of all I want to be save and come into the knowledge of truth
Tanisha,
Jesus is willing to credit even the legalistic, traditional Pharisees for tithing from their spices – so long as they don’t set aside the weightier matters of the Law, which are mercy and fair judgment and faithful trust; and so long as they don’t do what they do in order to be praised by men. (That’s in GosMatt 22, in the middle of leveling the Greater Condemnations on them – and after He has acknowledged that they have a legitimate seat for teaching in the chair of Moses and actually ought to be followed in what they’re teaching!)
I’m saying this, not as someone who is so particular about the Law that I even tithe my salt and pepper 
, but as someone who was appalled to find that Jesus’ condemnations were being aimed at unmerciful people like me who didn’t care whether someone else ever came someday to reconcile with God and serve in love and justice. I was like the Pharisees sinning the unforgivable sin, because I insisted those other people over there, whose latter state was worse than their first, would eventually not be saved and forgiven, but left in the clutches of the Plunder-possessor and good riddance to them! They had their chance, or even their chances, and blew it. I regarded any teaching that Jesus would act graciously to save even those from their sins, as being of the devil and not of God – partly because I didn’t think much about God saving people from their sins, or not other people anyway. It never occurred to me that in condemning the Pharisees, whose latter state (as Jesus said, and Peter after him) would be worse than their first, for opposing the salvation of that deaf and mute demented man whose latter state was, by his own express fault, worse than his former, I was in principle putting myself on the side of those Pharisees.
Until it occurred to me. 
So, don’t be too hard on the Pharisees. God loves them, too. And even at the end of the Greater Condemnations, He predicts that they will welcome Him with true Hosannas someday after all, just as surely as the Temple is going to fall thanks to them and to people like them.
It’s okay to grieve about your sins, and it’s especially okay to side with God against your sins. But He’s against your sins in order to be in favor of you personally. The whole point to being salted with the unquenchable fire of Gehenna, which everyone gets to be salted with, is to be at peace with one another. Aim at being merciful and fair to other people, and drink the baptism of fire (Who Himself is the Holy Spirit) against your injustices and uncharity – even if that can only be in little sips at first – and God will give you peace eventually. You don’t have to earn your forgiveness, but God does expect us to cooperate with His forgiveness of us.
Hopefully [tag]Sherman[/tag] will see your post and add some things himself, since you asked for him (and I’ll tag him for you, to help with that).
(Also, don’t panic if your posts don’t immediately go through at first – it isn’t because you’re in trouble, it’s only because all new accounts get sent to auto-mod for their first few posts, and have to be manually let through by the admins or moderators when we notice they’re in the gatehouse, to protect members and visitors from spam accounts. After two or three or four posts, the system will learn you’re a legitimate account and let you through automatically afterward.)