You’re welcome Chad. 
This one fascinates me (like the things Mr. Stock - of Star Trek - are fascinated by). Let’s see if I understand this correctly. Everything happened within Christianity around 70 AD. But we still live in a world full of sickness, destruction, apparent evil and death (whether real or illusion). But if everyone were to see clearly - like you do - then this world of sickness, destruction and death (whether real or illusion) would end? Is this the correct understanding? If not, then what must humanity do, to end this cycle of sickness, destruction, apparent evil and death (whether real or illusion)?
It appears similar to the answer that might be applied, by New Thought and Christian Science adherents.
This is where I am getting confused 
Only (although I shouldn’t say only) in terms of the final summing up and consummation of Israel’s redemption and consequent reconciliation of man… that’s a big deal, THE big deal IMO.
Yes… and those things have always been present. They are all summed up in “pain” – pain and death/destruction have always been part of the created order. The account of Eve has her pain being “greatly increased” – you can only increase what is ALREADY present. The food that sustained Adam and Eve that gave them life was of itself dying in destruction as they consumed it and it breaking down… that’s biological “death”; it was ALREADY present.
This fact is likewise seen in that IF they would put forth their hands and partake of the ‘Tree of Life’ they would summarily “LIVE FOREVER” – what does logic and common sense dictate was their present condition… one of dying just like everyone else. Physical death was part of the natural realm. Where the problem came was “Adam’s sin”… had he eaten of the Tree in his now fallen state the spiritual nature of “sin” would have been immortalised and humanity forever locked from passing through death’s veil into the presence of God.
I don’t make any claims to “see clearly” – I might just see differently. The “world of sickness, destruction and death” ENDS when we all like those before us step through death’s doorway into God’s greater beyond. Even Paul, taking him at his most base meaning, said…
No this is not a correct understanding IMO. Much confusion stems from the legacy of Christendom that has painted the picture of “eternal life” being equated to a heavenly UTOPIA of golden streets and fluffy clouds.
When, or to the degree humanity grasps the grace of God and evolves in terms of “love thy neighbour” to that degree the likes of hatred will decrease. The “no more tears” of Revelation was in relation to the tears of separation caused by SIN that now “in Christ” have been wiped away.
SIN being strengthened by the LAW wrought the sting of DEATH… not physical death but covenantal aka spiritual death. From the pantelist perspective this is what 1Cor 15:56 is all about; consider this logic… If death still has its sting (sin), then we MUST conclude that sin still has its strength (the law), which means that Christ is still yet to be “the end of the law” if indeed the last enemy to be destroyed, being death, has still not yet happened; if that isn’t a devastating blow to the Gospel and a demoralizing undermining of Christ’s victory I don’t know what is!
Let’s continue this dialogue of understanding - or my misunderstanding. People are still being born. People are still subject to death and suffering. Does humanity need - as a whole - to evolve to (and practice) “love thy neighbor” and believe in the grace of God?
So I - as a person - am sick of this suffering and pain. And children being born in a world - of suffering and pain. Should I just get everyone to “love thy neighbor” and believe in the grace of God - to get it to end? How can we get everyone to the heavenly state, folks to stop being born and dying, and everyone to be happy in heaven?
Pretend I am Curly of the Three Stooges. Or you are teaching Sunday school, to six year old children. Explain it so that Curly and the six year old children - would understand it.
Qaz. If the end times already happened and Jesus fulfilled everything around 70 AD, then I’m confused why God continues to allow a world being populated, people suffering, etc. I really don’t need a lesson in how to apply Christianity. This has been taught over the years, by folks from the Lutheran, Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and other Christian denominations, I have hung around with.
I’m trying to understand why I’m still here and suffering, given Dave’s postion - Pantelism - here (assuming they are correctly representing it).
In a futurists or even partial Pertelism position, Christ finally arrives. And some sort of ending occurs. Maybe it’s like the Left Behind series. Or some folks are left behind as humans and others as P-Zombies (the Walking Dead view - which I favor 
). Or the view the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Church presents. We have a judgement. Some sort of temporary punishment. Etc. But once this is done, we have a new heaven and a new earth. When do we get the New Heaven and New Earth with Pantelism?
Let’s view an article at On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell. Let me quote from it:
OK. I can possibly see that.
I can see their position and it sounds reasonable
This is where I get confused. Where is the new heaven and new earth? Or isn’t there one?
Now this is interesting
Exactly!
Yes. Now we are talking - I think. I believe this is what I am seeking.
And the article did begin with a great quote from Thomas Merton, the Trappist monk and Zen Master. The Seventh Story Mountain is one of the best spiritual autobiographies around.
I’ll welcome any article commentary, rebuttal or enhancement - as the preterists see things - from David or anyone here. Just talk to me like I am Curly (from the Three Stooges) or a six year old. Even the answer “I don’t know” is OK with me. Otherwise, I’ll stick with the given answers - in the article.
Now I’m not here to debate Dave, that a futurist or partial pertelism position is better. I’ll let Paidion do that. I’m just trying to understand a particular aspect, as Curly or a six year old would. But if the answer in the article is acceptable, how do we tie it in with universalism?
Randy posted:
Well, that is a take on it… But the idea that you go to a heaven or hell is some what rudimentary, that idea unfotunatly clings to old theological strongholds. And as David said earlier:
Now I have perceived that you have been once again updating your post… and that is good . You are looking. You are smart Randy… Way smarter than me. If you want to know what preterists or Pantelist’s or any other -ist’s think: you will find it out. You can, and I might say that I am impressed, com up with a cartoon or video that deal with the subject matter in what seems like no time at all. A gift.
There is a volume of info on this subject on this very forum (to start with) if someone just does a word search. The quality of the minds on this forum are far ranging, but there are some very, very sharp folks here. You included
This is what amazes me about your position, Davo. What appears to be literal truth, you take as figurative. But in the quote you made above, death is MEANT to be figurative, as is evident from the context, you seem to be taking it as literal.
Romans 6 (ESV):
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9 We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.
10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions.
This why I used those definitive qualifying words… “most base meaning” i.e., there’s probably some scope for this. But having said that, there is plenty of futurism that does exactly what you yourself raise.
First of all, QAZ, yes every knee will bow and every tongue *will *confess and praise the Christ. God has reconciled Israel and Himself. Hard to be a preterist if you do not believe that.
Now the ongoing issue with most is about the apparent inconsistency of God’s will and what they perceive as evil or un Christian works, in that many have a view that has been perpetuated upon them that somehow this marvelous creation is less than perfect according to God’s plan. I think He “GOD”, knows and knew exactly what He was and IS doing.
Glory be to the Father!
Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick are all what we as Christians are ‘CALLED’ to do.
Somehow you and others confuse the Cross / reconciliation/covenant fulfillment, with a sense of utopia on earth. God created and allowed!!! creation to go for a long time before he sent the Christ. In the interim he did many things.
But the biggest thing he did was to close the gap between humanity and Himself. There are many posts about free will on this forum. The fact that God gives us room to move and love and make mistakes is the ultimate evidence that His love is both never ending and unmerited from our standpoint. His creation is sublime and precious to Him.
My Children’s sins are not pleasing to me. Yet I continue to love them unconditionally.
You are preoccupied with others sins. Or your sins. Forgive and realize He has forgiven sin through Christ. That is the gospel message.
I can’t be more plain than that.
If you have a hard time with that, I pray that the light of Christ will shine on you, so you can forgive others and me and yourself.
It is truly a great message.
In love,
Chad
Randy, thanks for the update on the debate. 
I love the little concession stand! So I read the Pantelist view, and I can agree with some of it, but I’m just not getting the whole thing. I agree that Jesus did away with the Mosaic laws because many of these laws were not His, and that the destruction of Jerusalem was a judgment upon Israel. However, I don’t understand how all of humanity is saved because of this. What happened to Israel simply repeats itself when we do not follow the Lord.
Let’s play a game today. I call it What If. Today we play what if full Preterism is true?
Suppose death is the gateway, to our eternal destiny. And we don’t destroy the earth. Then life as we know it, could go on - “for the longest time”. We could have life and death on this earth, for a thousand years. A million years. A billion years. We could make science the new religion. We could lose interest in time based regions, like Judism, Christianity and Islam. We could replace them by cyclic religions - like Buddhism and Hinduism. Or eternal progression ones - like Mormonism. Unless a scientist invents time travel…goes back in time with a full Preterist…and brings back historical proof.
Am I playing this game of What If correctly? For the longest time, reminds me of a song
In response to the subject of the OP, the following sites contend that the “eonian times” are comprised of 5 eons
that have a beginning and an end, according to the Scriptures. Once God is all in all, the eonian times end.
“The Times of the Eons are the scene of sin…The entire span of time is divided into three grand divisions.
Before the Beginning we have the Pre-eonian Time. After the Consummation, we have the Post-Eonian Times.
Between these lie the Times of the Eons. This may be shown graphically…Before the eons, God is in solitary
supremacy and after the eons He has regained that place in spite of the opposition of His creatures.”
concordant.org/expositions/the-e … -calendar/
The Eons of the Bible With Concordance:
saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Chart of the Eons in History:
saviourofall.org/charts/Char … ments.html
Humanity doesn’t have to, but when we do the benefits of doing so will be self-evident.
Why? What is it you are expecting of “the end times”? And what texts determine these expectations?
Pantelism maintains that “if any man be in Christ he is a new creation” – following the same biblical pattern, pantelism views the “new creation” of Revelation as a description of the new covenant “coming down out of heaven from God”. The separation (the sea = gentiles) inherent with the old covenant i.e., the first heaven and earth, has finally passed away (Eph 2:14-16).
As above… the new creation equates to the new covenant… the new age or “age to come” “wherein righteousness dwells.”
The earth continues on ad infinitum (Gen 8:21-22; Psa 78:69; 93:1; 96:10; 104:5; 119:90; 148:4-6; Ecc 1:4; Eph 3:21 AV). As to the destiny of humanity… the bulk of prêterists I know hold to the conventional view of “hell” as per universalism, with exception of course that universalism limits one’s stay therein, as oppose to an infinite roasting.
This is absolutely correct. I grew up knowing futurists who claimed the world was going to hell in a hand basket and as a consequence being good stewards of this place was low on the priorities list.
Yes… and the NT is replete with verses saying such… which I’ve mentioned numerously.
I don’t see how salvation history can come to an end unless man no longer exists on the earth. For as long as we are here, there will always be a power struggle between God and man. Those who choose not to acknowledge God as their king will continue to set up their own kingdoms on earth. As we know, these kingdoms will not last. However, it seems that because of this, there would have to be a continuing process of salvation.
Does that mean you are a partial preterist? If not, which type are you?
qaz said:
Where did you get the Idea that morality no longer exists if the Parousia has happened? Also, what is end times?
Qaz said:
Well it is interesting you call yourself a preterist and do not see the significance of the destruction of the temple… The term preterist is a moving target. Though I can understand. The temple destruction has to do with the fulfillment of prophesy about the end of a covenant and the beginning of a new one. How can those in that time ignore the prophesies? But we also have to understand that God fixed the damage done by the fall, He did not change us so we become robots… We are still subject to that thing called sin and are still struggling and wrestling with how we are to be.
It can good or bad. Depending on the lense you see through!
What it means to be “saved” probably needs clarifying. The normal evangelical definition typically posits this to mean “getting to heaven” after death and thus avoiding hell – you won’t however find any texts of Scripture giving this understanding, you just won’t.
The post—evangelical position of pantelism understands what it means to be saved this way… Salvation was never about us getting to Heaven – Jesus got all humanity there by virtue of His atoning death. NT salvation was/is all about coming into the call of God for service – thus being ‘saved to serve’ i.e., coming into the priesthood of service.
As to the wholesale inclusion of humanity into the grace of God the pantelist rationale works this way…
Redemption (the forgiveness of sins) was primarily Israel’s need and came in the form of covenant renewal and restoration aka “resurrection” (Ezek 37:1-14). Jesus as Israel’s Messiah accomplished this ON BEHALF OF Israel, all Israel. As a result and in consequence of this humanity was fully reconciled to God i.e., brought in from the darkness (ignorance), even though He was never far from any of them (Acts 17:27, 30).
From the pantelist position the key text that shows this is…
Or to paraphrase Paul for easy reading: “Now if Israel’s fall is riches for humanity, and Israel’s failure riches for the Gentile firstfruit saints, how much more Israel’s redemptive fullness! … For if Israel being cast away by God is the reconciling of humanity, what will Israel’s acceptance by God be but redemptive resurrection, that is, life from the dead?”
I wouldn’t detract from that but to clarify from my position further… any personal salvation occurs only because of the redemption and reconciliation established and consummated through the Cross—Parousia event AD30-70.
qaz… this is a constant theme you raise with regards to “some preterist universalists” – can you give anecdotal evidence for your concern, i.e., can you please explain your experience/s around these “preterist universalists” that generates this disquiet of yours.