In response to the subject of the OP, the following sites contend that the “eonian times” are comprised of 5 eons
that have a beginning and an end, according to the Scriptures. Once God is all in all, the eonian times end.
“The Times of the Eons are the scene of sin…The entire span of time is divided into three grand divisions.
Before the Beginning we have the Pre-eonian Time. After the Consummation, we have the Post-Eonian Times.
Between these lie the Times of the Eons. This may be shown graphically…Before the eons, God is in solitary
supremacy and after the eons He has regained that place in spite of the opposition of His creatures.” concordant.org/expositions/the-e … -calendar/
Humanity doesn’t have to, but when we do the benefits of doing so will be self-evident.
Why? What is it you are expecting of “the end times”? And what texts determine these expectations?
Pantelism maintains that “if any man be in Christ he is a new creation” – following the same biblical pattern, pantelism views the “new creation” of Revelation as a description of the new covenant “coming down out of heaven from God”. The separation (the sea = gentiles) inherent with the old covenant i.e., the first heaven and earth, has finally passed away (Eph 2:14-16).
As above… the new creation equates to the new covenant… the new age or “age to come” “wherein righteousness dwells.”
The earth continues on ad infinitum (Gen 8:21-22; Psa 78:69; 93:1; 96:10; 104:5; 119:90; 148:4-6; Ecc 1:4; Eph 3:21 AV). As to the destiny of humanity… the bulk of prêterists I know hold to the conventional view of “hell” as per universalism, with exception of course that universalism limits one’s stay therein, as oppose to an infinite roasting.
This is absolutely correct. I grew up knowing futurists who claimed the world was going to hell in a hand basket and as a consequence being good stewards of this place was low on the priorities list.
Yes… and the NT is replete with verses saying such… which I’ve mentioned numerously.
I don’t see how salvation history can come to an end unless man no longer exists on the earth. For as long as we are here, there will always be a power struggle between God and man. Those who choose not to acknowledge God as their king will continue to set up their own kingdoms on earth. As we know, these kingdoms will not last. However, it seems that because of this, there would have to be a continuing process of salvation.
…because they are good acts. And murder, lust, fraud, avarice, etc. are evil acts, which we must not partake in. I don’t see how the destruction of the temple would change that.
I’m a preterist. I don’t rule out the possibility of a future event where Christ visibly returns to Earth, but I don’t think such will necessarily happen either. I don’t think the end-times prophesies were about a utopia on Earth. My problem is with the idea that, supposing the end times have occurred, morality no longer exists.
If I’m preoccupied with sins, then some preterist universalists are preoccupied with the Jerusalem temple. I don’t think by virtue of the temple being destroyed, it doesn’t matter if we ignore Christ’s teachings and example for how we are to treat God and others.
Well it is interesting you call yourself a preterist and do not see the significance of the destruction of the temple… The term preterist is a moving target. Though I can understand. The temple destruction has to do with the fulfillment of prophesy about the end of a covenant and the beginning of a new one. How can those in that time ignore the prophesies? But we also have to understand that God fixed the damage done by the fall, He did not change us so we become robots… We are still subject to that thing called sin and are still struggling and wrestling with how we are to be.
It can good or bad. Depending on the lense you see through!
What it means to be “saved” probably needs clarifying. The normal evangelical definition typically posits this to mean “getting to heaven” after death and thus avoiding hell – you won’t however find any texts of Scripture giving this understanding, you just won’t.
The post—evangelical position of pantelism understands what it means to be saved this way… Salvation was never about us getting to Heaven – Jesus got all humanity there by virtue of His atoning death. NT salvation was/is all about coming into the call of God for service – thus being ‘saved to serve’ i.e., coming into the priesthood of service.
As to the wholesale inclusion of humanity into the grace of God the pantelist rationale works this way…
Redemption (the forgiveness of sins) was primarily Israel’s need and came in the form of covenant renewal and restoration aka “resurrection” (Ezek 37:1-14). Jesus as Israel’s Messiah accomplished this ON BEHALF OF Israel, all Israel. As a result and in consequence of this humanity was fully reconciled to God i.e., brought in from the darkness (ignorance), even though He was never far from any of them (Acts 17:27, 30).
From the pantelist position the key text that shows this is…
Or to paraphrase Paul for easy reading: “Now if Israel’s fall is riches for humanity, and Israel’s failure riches for the Gentile firstfruit saints, how much more Israel’s redemptive fullness! … For if Israel being cast away by God is the reconciling of humanity, what will Israel’s acceptance by God be but redemptive resurrection, that is, life from the dead?”
I wouldn’t detract from that but to clarify from my position further… any personal salvation occurs only because of the redemption and reconciliation established and consummated through the Cross—Parousia eventAD30-70.
qaz… this is a constant theme you raise with regards to “some preterist universalists” – can you give anecdotal evidence for your concern, i.e., can you please explain your experience/s around these “preterist universalists” that generates this disquiet of yours.
Davo, I see Israel’s main problem as a power struggle between God and man. This is illustrated in Genesis 32:28 "And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.” This problem goes back to 1 Samuel 8:7-9 when Israel rejects God as their king and demands an earthly king like all the other nations. In verse 9 God says this: “Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.” We see throughout their history where their earthly kings led them, to the grave. God did not cast away Israel but Israel rose up and accepted God as their king.
Indeed, Israel’s rejection of God’s kingship over them alone was their great sin, which comes under the scope of Rom 11:26-27, and thus in the context of Romans explains to your query “However, I don’t understand how all of humanity is saved because of this” – which I’ve answered above via the Rom 11:12, 15 reference etc.
Today’s reflection is on solid or airtight scriptural cases.
Now someone like Paidion is good at finding inconsistencies or contradictions - in scripture. But for each one he can point out, a theologian from the Southern Baptist Convention - can explain it away. And they can do it, in a logical and consistent manner.
Now someone like Davo can present a solid and maybe almost airtight case for Full Preterism. And someone like Jason can present a solid case for Universalism. But the same can be said for theologians presenting cases for conditional immortality, Exile or P-Zombie view of hell, open theism, post-mortem opportunities for salvation, etc. And if they are good, they can handle objections. One of the most brilliant people I know of is Mary Baker Eddy. In her heyday, she convinced a lot of people that God is absolutely good. And disease, matter and death are illusions. We just need to see things properly.
Suppose Mr. Data and Mr Stock of Star Trek, went to go Holodeck. They might see presentations by historical and contemporary figures, for all the positions we just talked about - and more. And they might see how they handle objections. And I would like to personally see a Holodeck debate, between Aristotle and Plato.
But all we have shown is that folks can present a good case from scripture and handle objections. But not all the isms can be equally true. We have to pick which ones we side with. Which ones we have theological and philosophical champions we like. Then run with them.
My chief concern on some of these ism’s, is that historical and contemporary, mystics and saints of the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant traditions - either don’t have any spiritual experiences on them. Or they are purposely silent - and remain so. For example, I like a lot from the visions of contemporary Old Catholic Church mystic Tiffany Snow. In Armageddon - Who What Where When Why How, her visions imply a futuristic point of view.
Now folks like Paidion and Davo are pretty evenly matched - in my opinion. So I would see a stalemate or a battle going on - for the longest time. Say, you know what? That does remind me of a song. But I’ll share it some other time.
Now I do strange things. Holy Fools and P-Zombies do that. I would look - for example - at what all the conventional medical tests and specialist’s opinions, have to offer. But I would also consult with experts from the homeopathic, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine disciplines. As well as spiritual approaches, like the Native American ceremonies and medicine men and women, folks from the Bruno Groening Circle of Friends, and calling on Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox saints, or the Japanese healing modality Johrei.
In the meantime, I pretty much have my scriptural and spiritual perspectives and viewpoints. Now folks might call it “strange” or “unusual”. But I’m sure Mr. Data and Mr. Spock would say it’s very logical and fascinating.
Can one be between “isms” I find myself to be between isms.
I’m concerned that you rely so heavily on trusting learned and scholars. You should have the Holy Spirit to teach you and confirm truths.
You mentioned in another post the difference between being self learned and trained by seminary. You should have a self study and listen to teachers but the accuracy is confirmed by the One within that bears witness. Or are you not born again?
One can be between ism’s - all the time. It happens every day, in academia.
“Born Again” is a loaded topic in Christian circles. And there is much criticism and different positions - regarding that term (see Wiki article Born again). And the Holy Spirit does lead us. But it might be to any mainstream Christian body. And we might see differences in them. But people are led by the spirit - to seek them - nonetheless. For example, the Native American author of **The Pipe and Christ **by William Stolzman, was led to become a Roman Catholic priest.
There’s nothing wrong with trusting learned theologians, philosophers and scholars. This is what seminary and graduate PhD programs are made of. If it’s good enough for them, it’s good enough for me.
So you think the leading of the Holy Spirit is so we can be taught by man within what you would consider mainstream churches??
I have to say that’s silly! With churches falling like trapped flies under the political and social pressures, He will NOW be calling His people and speaking to them directly like He hasn’t in our time before. And the "children of God will stand out and stand on His word with The Helper within then confirming Truth and revealing mysteries.
And the scholar may just miss hearing Him because their doctrines become their God.
Those who are sealed with the Spirit of promise will hear Him.
Jesus said “My sheep hear my voice another they simply won’t follow.” I don’t care what the mainstream churches say about being “born again” Its an experience that God Himself does in our lives. It is the “way” You can’t walk by the Spirit without the experience of being born again.
Being born again, and being one of His sheep is an act of children. Unless we become like a child we won’t know Him nor will we be “known by Him”
So I’m listening for His voice. All facts He bears witness to by 2 or 3, our primary witness is the Spirit of Truth!
If man speaks and its from God, the Spirit should bear witness. If God speaks within He will also bear witness by the saints.
But just because it’s a mainstream church doesn’t mean The Spirit of Truth is there.
The problem comes in is when folks think they are being led by the Holy Spirit and present different scriptural positions. It has happened on this forum. When I did pin a person down, they said they were being led - by the Holy Spirit. So if person A has a different Biblical understanding than person B…and they both claim to be led by the Holy Spirit … Who is right? How can someone standing on the outside - know?
I find it interesting you call them “man made churches.” Did the Apostles and Saint Paul also establish - or partake in - “man made churches”? I trust that you don’t belong to any “man made churches” - right?
Anyway, I’m off again this morning. I’ll continue our “intellectual discussion” when I return.
God’s purpose was to bring good news to the Gentiles then also restore the Jews.
The Jews were His people who brought forth His promise the line of David, Jesus.
They rejected the Christ and killed Him. But God prepared the Passover Lamb Jesus Himself, and because of their obstinance, God let them be blind for a time.
As the good news went out to the Gentiles. He will also soon He will restore a portion of Israel, and already has in many Jews, in the Messianic Jews, who are Jews that believe Jesus is the Messiah.
The rejection had to occur to spread the good news beyond the chosen people Israel. So that the children of God from the Gentiles would also join the chosen out of Israel to be as 1 people.
His Bride. The children of God, “nature groans to see revealed,” sealed with the Spirit of promise. And redeemed from the curse of man.
“Test the Spirits” not every Spirit is from God. Without the Helper, the Spirit of Truth we can’t discern the difference. The biggest thing is abide in Him, and He in you. And Truth will be made known.
The Holy Spirit makes sense, but its simplicity is since.
If it’s complicated it’s likely not from God.
And if it’s stupid but simple it may also not be from God.
The Spirit will lead you to all Truth, if He is indeed in you.
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot * receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. 18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 "After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20 "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot ) said to Him, “Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me. 25 "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 "Every
branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot * bear fruit of itself unless * it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless * you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing *. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever * you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
Disciples’ Relation to Each Other
12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15 "No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever * * you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17 "This I command you, that you love one another.
Disciples’ Relation to the World
18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this * the world hates you. 20 "Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 "But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me. 22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 "He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 "If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. 25 "But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’ 26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27 and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
The purposes of the Spirit
1 to perform a work in us causing us to be born of the Spirit
2 to remain with us
3 to enable us to walk in the Spirit, which is a walk of love
4 to bear fruit in us that also will remain, " not be burned up" but remain
5 To glorify Jesus, and bring all things to remembrance
6 to bear witness to the truth and teach us all things
7 to make us 1 like the Father and Son are 1
8 to give Spiritual gifts, to make leaders and pastors
9 to make us stand
Feel free to chime on on the jobs and purposes of the Spirit.