The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Aionios in 2Tim 1:9, Titus 1:2 and Rom 16:25


#121

When you just quote scripture to questions or comments - it tells me nothing. What do you think the quoted scripture means? At least when I hear a sermon, the preacher, minister, priest or bishop - gives me either their own exposition or that of the particular church, they are affiliated with.

Test the spirits? I do that all the time. There are spirits of heaven, hell and spirits of the earth. Many people don’t even know they exist, let alone tell the difference.


#122

The scriptures often speak for themselves without an explanation needed.

I have added explanations also
I discussed what I think being born again is then I backed it with scripture.
Any truth should be backed by the Word.

If people aren’t aware of “spirits” they probably are sleeping or havnt been born of the Spirit


#123

More often than not, an explanation is needed. But it’s usually given, through a particular church lens.

Just so everyone is on the same page. What is your definition/ Can you find it in the Wiki article born again? And how should one regard the explanations given by Roman Catholics, Lutheran, Anglicans, Reformed and Methodists, given in the Wiki article?

True.

You do realize this “intellectual discussion” can go on, for a long, long time - right? Off to the races, for a while. :laughing:


#124

True.

You do realize this “intellectual discussion” can go on, for a long, long time - right? Off to the races, for a while. :laughing:

If you are born again it doesn’t matter if your Catholic or Presbyterian or Messianic Jew or Non Denominational.
The common thing would be 1 in the Spirit aside from our factions and minor doctrines.
It actually doesn’t matter if You go to confession or if I put my face down on the alter. God looks at the heart.
If your conscience needs the rituals you were accustomed to, and I do not… that is exactly what 1 Corinthians was discussing.

So let’s not make each other stumble and honor each’s need to their conscience.
Even if your faith is “weak” needing the ritual, and mine is not " no longer needing the ritual" what matters is that we love and don’t cause the one who is weak to stumble.
Because what matter weak or strong is the heart


#125

I have to ask KNH777 the **obvious ** questions:

Are you a universalist? Why or why not?
If not, why are you here?
If not, what happens to the “unsaved”?
If so, then what difference does one’s Christian orientation (i.e. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Baptist, Methodist, etc.) make?
If so, why do you think your position is more or less right, then that of anyone on this forum?

Anyway, I’m away this evening. So I might have to continue tomorrow. :smiley:


#126

Is this site to only discuss 1 view?
“Universalism”
Or is this site to discuss spiritual truths and views from the Bible?

Honestly never really heard of the term.
If it is as I briefly read
Are the terrorist that flew planes into twin towers saved then?


#127

I’m off now. Just got back briefly. But I did read your answers, to my questions about universalism - posted in Free Will. Thanks for answering.

As far as the question:

Is this site to only discuss 1 view?
“Universalism”
Or is this site to discuss spiritual truths and views from the Bible?

I will let the admins, moderators and members here - answer this question. Take care. :smiley:


#128

I am not opposed to the value of their study. I just don’t feel that’s the end all of knowledge. I don’t think you have to have a level of scholarly education to hear from God and your get understanding.
I value the independent study by a person equally to the scholar.
I think both could have valuable input to gain understanding.


#129

FWIW I recently had the pleasure to see this quote from a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

“…in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction
in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127).”

journalofanalytictheology.com/ja … 30418a/271

Matthew 25:46 “And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.” (CLNT)


#130

What is the significance of aionios when it is in the plural?

I met an alleged native Greek speaker on a forum. He argued aionios is always finite when in the plural form, which he alleged is only in Rom.16:25 in the NT. He claimed all other NT occurrences of aionios mean “eternal”. We had the following conversation re aionios in the plural in Rom.16:25 & elsewhere:

No other NT instances of the plural aionios than Rom.16:25? Not according to:

“I understand the meaning of the word aionios (often appearing in genitive plural aionion) in Greek…”

Time or Character, The Ages or A Time Sequence in aionios: How Words “Mean” in Greek and English

" “[God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.” (2 Timothy 1:9)

“That phrase “from all eternity” in Greek is ‘pro aionios chronos.’ Pro means ‘before,’ aionios is in a plural form as is chronos, which means ‘time.’ …”

"“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past.” (Romans 16:25)

“The phrase “long ages past” in Greek is ‘aionios chronos.’ Again, both aionios and chronos are in a plural form…”

"“…in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,” (Titus 1:2)

“Again, the phrase, “long ages ago,” in Greek is ‘pro aionios chronos.’ And again, both aionios and chronos are in a plural form. It is unfeasible to have multiple eternities that ended a long time ago. That is why the translators for many versions of the Bible refrain from using the word “eternal” in these verses. The question then remains…if this word means eternal, then how can there be more than one eternity? And how can there be eternities that are past?”#5


#131

Those examples are rare exceptions. Aionios means eternal, and context makes that clear in 90% of its uses. The fact that there are a few verses where interpreting aionios as eternal do not make sense if broken down literally doesn’t change that.


#132

Which examples? Rare exceptions of what?

We disagree there. IMO in the NT aionion means eonian.

If it means eternal, then do you believe in “eternal punishment” & fire (Mt.25:41,46) & eternal destruction (2 Thess.1:9), & eternal sin (Mk.3:29)? How about the parallel passage to Mt.25:41 with torments forever (Rev.20:10). Have you rejected universalism?

The meaning of any instance of aionion is determined by usage & its particular context.


#133

They’re rare exceptions to aionios literally meaning eternal.

I’m still a universalist. We must find ways to interpret texts that speak of eternal punishment without mistranslating them.


#134

In the comments section of this blog are some remarks that i found interesting, such as:


#135

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for “shame everlasting”(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?lemma=αἰσχύνη

http://biblehub.com/greek/152.htm

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: “For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget”.

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, “shame everlasting [eonian]” in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html#ixzz5JOdjdSmt


#136

Can you provide a single example in all of ancient Greek where you think context makes it clear that aionios means “eternal”? I don’t see any examples of such in the NT or Greek OT. Do you also think aion & olam mean eternal? The following post quotes dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration & refers to dozens of others where it is finite:


#137

Even this guy you specifically quote understands “eternal” isn’t hamstrung to literalism — it can be qualitative or as noted here qualifying