Where in the world did you come up with this? If you can’t show evidence of this why would you say this? 
God bless.
Aaron’s response towards my Rev 20:13 support of “all of humanity” being judged in Rev 20:11-15.
I would like to add to the support of “all of humanity” being judged in Rev 20:11-15. This also reveals when Philippians 2:10-11 will occur at the judgment seat of Christ which happens in Rev 20:11-15. Although the contextual meaning of Philippians 2:10 is the authority in the name of Jesus relative to us as believers…Romans 14:10-12 is crystal clear when Phil 2:10-11 happens therefore destroying the UR interpretation of using it as everyone’s confession unto salvation. 
Romans 14:10-12
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Paul says that there is division among us and that there must be so we can see who has God’s approval. Do you really think we just say wow Aaron must be right because he’s got the Holy Spirit and we don’t. Discussing the matter shows who has the holy spirit ON THE SUBJECT.
Here’s an example.
Suppose two Godly men sit and one says:
Everyon can pray in tounges becuase it’s a prayer language.
another man says:
No, it’s a gift and God gives it to whom he pleases.
No matter who’s right, they both have the Holy Spirit. Having the Holy Spirit doesn’t make us omniscient and all wise. We are being transformed and Iron sharpens Iron. If you are correct then the sword needs no sharpening because we should already have ALL THE RIGHT ANSWERS.
So then my words to allen are this.
Arminian ECT finds virtue in risk.
Calvinism finds virtue in God’s sov.
Universalism finds virtue in God’s love.
You are of the first group because you believe Genesis declares man is sov over his own choices. Instead of appealing to “I’ve got the Holy Spirit so you better follow” you should show how you have the Holy Spirit, because we’re commanded by God to test everything including the Holy Spirit. Now if you preach love rather than gambling perhaps we’ll embrace your view but so far your view only endorses a gambling God.
We have free will Universalists, but they admit God in the end will win the person over - there is no gamble.
Aug
When have I ever said "“I’ve got the Holy Spirit so you better follow”? I have said though if you are not following the standard established by God in his word to understand the Bible how can we accurately say we understand the Bible? Those standards are recorded in Isa 28:9-11; John 14-16; 1Cor 2:10-14 and the whole chapter of 1 Cor 14. God bless.
Revival,
Where in the world did you come up with this? If you can’t show evidence of this why would you say this?
Where’d you come up with the idea that it refers only to the damned? Look, you keep avoiding my main argument, even when I’ve copied and pasted it for your benefit. If you don’t want to dialogue with me about this, that’s okay. 
Revival,
You ask where:
Everyone agrees that the Holy Spirit leads us and illuminates us. But what is your point? That people are leaving out the Holy Spirit so they’re hermeneutics are faulty? Thus it’s logical to insist that you mean YOU INCLUDE the Holy Spirit where others don’t. If you mean EVERYONE DOES then you make NO SENSE.
Just as you’ve told me and Magma - “You don’t have a problem with me, but with God’s word”.
Mormons tell me that - SO WHAT! We’re still gonna test you and when you come on board and say people are quoting out of context when you yourself do it as well - without admitting it because you pray in tounges - Then you really have no business discussing these issues.
Um… Auggy… I’m not sure what Revival believes exactly and I understand there are many confused “Arminians” out there, but every (classical and orthodox) Arminian does believe that God causes our free choice. Anything else would be Pelagian/semi-Pelagian. In my own strength, I certainly cannot walk in the divine way (I struggle to do it with the empowerment of the Holy Spirit!).
Brothers,
You may be right and I’ve read the Arminian position (Roger Olson, William Birch) and I appreciate much of what they express. However, I don’t agree with them. I’m not saying “This is what they believe” - I have never heard an Arminian say that God caused their free choice. But I’m totally open to correction.
But even if they did endorse that God causes our choices, you know it would then be argued that if God causes one to have a good choice then what keeps him from causing good choices in “bad people” - they’ll respond “freedom of the will”.
Sorry Auggy and brothers, this is not a discussion on the labels( Arminian,Calvinist, etc) man puts on Christians to what they believe or how one interprets the Bible, but rather showing the record of anyone being found recorded in the book of life and exiting the lake of fire after the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15. Can we bring it back to the OP, please. Thanks.
Hi Aaron,
You wrote:
Ok, either you’re stalling for time while you try to figure out how to resolve what is (I think) a glaring inconsistency in your position, or you’re simply oblivious to the fact that there is a problem. If it’s the latter, then I’ll try to make it as clear as I can: In John 6:40, 44 and 54 (cf. John 11:24, where Martha speaks of “the resurrection on the last day”) Jesus is speaking of a specific period of time that he refers to as the “last day.” In the above quote you make it clear that you believe the “last day” is the “day of the Lord” (when you think the resurrection of believers takes place - and btw, you said “resurrecting all believers dead and alive,” but living people don’t need to be raised from the dead, do they?). But when Christ again speaks of the “last day” in John 12:48 (using the exact same expression found in John 6 as well as in John 11:24), you’ve argued that he’s speaking of a post-millennial judgment. So which is it, Aaron? Does the “last day” refer to a time before the millennial reign (when you think Christ will resurrect believers), or does it refer to a time after the millennial reign (when you think the judgment of Rev 20:11-15 will take place)? To put it another way, does the “last day” refer to when you think the martyrs will come to life (Rev 20:4-6), or does the “last day” refer to when you think the great white throne judgment will take place?
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Where do any of these verses speak of “every human who has ever lived?” Answer: Nowhere. Rev 20 simply refers to “the dead,” but this is exactly what John could’ve said if he’d had any number of spiritually dead persons in view in this vision. In Matthew 11:5 Jesus says, “…and the dead are raised up.” Was Jesus referring to every person who has ever lived when he spoke of “the dead?” Of course not. And in Luke 9:60 Jesus says, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead.” Was he referring to every person who has ever lived when he spoke of “the dead?” Again, of course not. Why then should I understand John to be talking about “every human who has ever lived” in Rev 20:12 just because he speaks of “the dead?” Again, I think you’re simply reading your own beliefs into the text here.
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I don’t think you ever said whether you think the expression “the dead” in Rev 20:12 refers to those who are physically dead (as in 1 Cor 15) or spiritually dead (as in Rev 3:1-2). What is your understanding?
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Do you think Paul is talking about every human who will ever live (and die) when he speaks of “the dead” in 1 Cor 15:52? If not, why must I understand Rev 20:12 as you do? There’s more contextual evidence to believe that John was using the expression “the dead” to refer to a limited number of people in Rev 20:12 (e.g., the spiritually dead people of “Babylon”) than there is to believe that Paul was referring to less than all who die in Adam in 1 Cor 15:52.
As for Daniel 12:2, my understanding of this verse can be found here: Daniel 12:2. And even if this text is understood to refer to a physical, literal resurrection, it still wouldn’t be talking about “every human who has ever lived.” The text says that “many” (not “all”) who “sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.” This prophecy specifically concerns Daniel’s people (the Jews), not “every human who has ever lived” (see, for example, verses 1 and 7 of this chapter).
Similarly, in 2 Cor 5:10 (where Paul says “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ”), he clearly has believers (such as himself and the believers to whom he was writing) in view, not “every human who has ever lived.” See the context.
- Previously, you said
Is this still your view? Do you think 1 Thess 5 refers to this “one last alter call” that you believe will take place after the resurrection of believers? I believe Paul’s talking about the same thing Jesus spoke of in Luke 21:20-24 and elsewhere (which Christ said would take place before that generation passed away - v. 32). Compare especially Luke 21:34-36 and 1 Thess 5:2-6.
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1 Thess 5:1-11 need not be understood as a continuation of the same subject in 1 Thess 4:13-18 (where I believe Paul is talking about what is to take place on the “last day” when the “last trumpet” sounds and the “last enemy” is abolished by Christ). The expression Paul uses in 1 Thess 5:1 (“Now concerning”) is often used when he’s introducing a new subject for his readers (see, for example, 1 Cor 8:1; 12:1; 16:1; 1 Thess 4:9). The expression “the times and the seasons” refers to God’s providential dealings with kingdoms (Dan 2:21; 7:12), and in 1 Thess 5:1 I believe it refers specifically to the time when the kingdom of God was to be taken from the unbelieving Jews and given to the church, which is the true Israel (Acts 1:6-7; Matt 21:43; cf. Rom 2:28-29; 9:6-7). This, I believe, took place when the “shattering of the power of the holy people” (i.e., the old covenant nation of Israel - Deut 7:6) came to an end (Dan 12:7). And I believe this took place when the earthly city of Jerusalem (which Paul called the “present Jerusalem” and contrasted with the “Jerusalem above” in Gal 4:25-26) was destroyed in 70 AD.
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I’m curious as to what you think Peter was talking about when he referred to the “day of the Lord” in 2 Pet 3:10. It’s evident from the context that Peter understood this “day” (which he similarly spoke of as coming “like a thief”) as the time when the old heavens and old earth would end and the “new heavens and new earth” would begin (v. 13). But if that’s the case, then the “day of the Lord” is just prior to what John describes as taking place in Rev 21. How do you reconcile this with your view?
Again, where is your proof that Matt 24:31 refers to the same event as 1 Thess 4:16 or 1 Cor 15:52? There is nothing said about a resurrection of the dead or a rapture from the earth in Matt 24:31. Nor is the trumpet in this verse said to be the “last trumpet.” Moreover, you erroneously asserted that “Matt 24:31 says the angels are gathering the elect from the earth and heaven” (emphasis mine) and when I pointed out what the expression “one end of heaven from another” means (allowing Scripture to interpret itself), all you can say in response is, “Your preterist lenses are blinding you to the truth.” This kind of response tells me that you’re simply unable to defend your assertions with good arguments, and must therefore resort to making more assertions.
Also, unless I missed it, you haven’t yet responded to the following (How should we feel about salvation?):
This is that last time I’m going to explain this, Aaron. All dead believers are resurrected and All alive believers are raptured or caught up into the air to be with the Lord ( 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-52). Both receive their glorified or incorruptible bodies. (1Cor 15:53-54.) The day of the Lord or last day refers to what I just explained to you above before the millennial reign…before the last judgment in Rev 20:11-15.
I disagree with you about those verses but here are additional verses that support it.
Romans 14:10-12
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Before you go off and say this is for believers only (which it is not) Need I remind you that God gave Jesus to be judge over believers and unbelievers (John 5:22). Also look at Rom 14:12 says “Every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue will confess to God”. This also reveals when Philippians 2:10-11 will occur at the judgment seat of Christ which happens in Rev 20:11-15. Although the contextual meaning of Philippians 2:10 is the authority in the name of Jesus relative to us as believers…Romans 14:10-12 is crystal clear when Phil 2:10-11 happens therefore destroying the UR interpretation of using it as everyone’s confession unto salvation.
Again, I said the book of Revelation is God’s last alter call. To be more specific: From Rev 11 to 19.
Peter didn’t say the “new heavens and new earth” would begin right after “the day of the Lord”. He said according to his promise,** Look ** for the new heaven and the new earth. The millennial reign will happen after the day of the Lord and then the new heavens and the new earth.
Hi Aaron,
You wrote:
I hope this isn’t the last time you’re going to explain it, because I don’t think your “explanation” in any way resolves (or even attempts to resolve) the inconsistency I’ve pointed out. Do you really not see what I’ve been trying to make clear to you? Recall that you’ve asserted several times that the judgment referred to in John 12:48 is “a post-millennial judgment at the great white throne judgment in Rev 20:11-15” (in fact, it was this assertion by you that I think started this tangent in our discussion). But according to Jesus, the judgment of John 12:48 takes place on the “last day.” And above, you assert, “The day of the Lord or last day refers to what I just explained to you above before the millennial reign…before the last judgment in Rev 20:11-15.” How is this not an inconsistency in your position?
I’ve commented on these verses elsewhere on this forum (Could Phil 2:11 be referring to the White Throne Judgment). There I argued (quoting Robin Parry in TEU) that Paul was quoting Isaiah 45 to emphasize the fact that it is God - not other believers - to whom believers are accountable, since God is the one to whom all people are ultimately going to be bowing down and swearing their allegiance/giving praise. That is, Paul’s making an a fortiori argument here. Since those to whom Paul wrote knew that it is to God that all people owe their allegiance and to whom all people will be giving praise, it follows that it is God - not other believers - to whom every believer is ultimately accountable. If that’s not what Paul’s arguing here, then he would be teaching that every person who ever lived will be bowing down and confessing/giving praise to God at the “judgment seat of God.” But this isn’t really what you believe, is it? You don’t really believe that all people will one day bow down to God and swear allegiance/give him praise (as Isaiah and Paul say), do you?
So this would include what John writes in Rev 14:8-11, right?
Yeah, I realize your current belief is that “the millennial reign will happen after the day of the Lord” and that the millennial reign will be followed by the “new heavens and the new earth,” but Peter spoke as if the “day of the Lord” was going to bring about those conditions in which new heavens and a new earth would be necessary. Whether he was speaking literally or figuratively in this passage, Peter said that “the heavens and earth” that were in existence in his day were “stored up for fire” (3:7). And then he goes on to say that on this day the heavens were going to be set on fire, dissolved and pass away with a roar, and the “heavenly bodies” were going to be burned up and dissolved. So whether Peter was speaking literally or figuratively, wouldn’t you say that he’s talking about the end/passing away of the “heavens” that he has in view here? And if that’s the case (and I honestly don’t see how it could be otherwise), wouldn’t there have to be new heavens to replace them? Wouldn’t the most natural interpretation of Peter’s words in this chapter be that those to whom he wrote (as well as himself) were looking/waiting for “new heavens and a new earth” because the heavens and earth that were in existence when he wrote were “stored up for fire”?
Also, were you planning on responding to the other things I said in my 12/2/11 post (which I quoted in my last response)?
Thanks, Aaron for the redundant conversation. I’m no longer interested being interrogated for my eschatological beliefs. God bless.
I’m pretty sure that you see the inconsistency in your position just as well as I (and probably others) do, so I take the above to mean that you don’t want to admit it.
I was seriously expecting more from you, Aaron. 
The only inconsistency is your inability to understand my comments due to the fact you look at them with preterists eyes. I was expecting more from you as well. God bless.
Hi Aaron,
You wrote:
I want to understand you, Aaron. But aside from the other stuff you haven’t yet responded to, you haven’t said anything to help me or anyone else understand the following inconsistency in your position:
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According to Jesus, the judgment of John 12:48 takes place on the “last day.”
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According to Jesus, those who believe on him will be resurrected on the “last day” (John 6:40, 44, 54; cf. John 11:24, where Martha speaks of “the resurrection on the last day”).
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You believe the judgment referred to in John 12:48 will take place after the millennial reign, at the great white throne judgment described in Rev 20:11-15.
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You believe that all believers will be resurrected by Jesus “before the millennial reign” and “before the last judgment in Rev 20:11-15.”
Sorry you don’t understand. I will not be responding to anymore questions or comments on this subject. God bless.