Challenge

[Lefein]

We already have…

[URPilgrim]

All the scripture you use to support ECT must lead to the everlasting punishment you say happens in the lake of fire. All I want you ( and every ECT’ers) is to show me this evidence to be true. Show me evidence (in the original languages, sorry I just don’t see the KJV being the word on this issue) of anyone staying in the lake of fire after Rev 20:11-15.

Sorry… me bad… Couldn’t help myself

As mentioned by some already… Rev. is NOT the end of the story Revival…

You said it yourself that even some of your beliefs have changed over time as you studied and let the Holy Spirit lead you to new Truths. Most of us here have gone through the same process (and not without some heavy wrestling with God) to be where we are today. None of us here (well, I guess I can only speak for myself ) claim to have the corner on Truth, or have come to this place by choice. Our voyage across the great sea of the knowledge of truth may require a few course corrections now and then. We are all here just trying to follow Him.

[Revival]

All the scripture you use to support ECT must lead to the everlasting punishment you say happens in the lake of fire. All I want you ( and every ECT’ers) is to show me this evidence to be true. Show me evidence (in the original languages, sorry I just don’t see the KJV being the word on this issue) of anyone staying in the lake of fire after Rev 20:11-15.

Sorry… me bad… Couldn’t help myself

As mentioned by some already… Rev. is NOT the end of the story Revival…

You said it yourself that even some of your beliefs have changed over time as you studied and let the Holy Spirit lead you to new Truths. Most of us here have gone through the same process (and not without some heavy wrestling with God) to be where we are today. None of us here (well, I guess I can only speak for myself ) claim to have the corner on Truth, or have come to this place by choice. Our voyage across the great sea of the knowledge of truth may require a few course corrections now and then. We are all here just trying to follow Him.

Nice. but it stands to reason when you understand the judgment in Rev 20:11-15 to be final God felt no need to put emphasis on people staying in the lake of fire.( although he does remind us where unbelievers are in Rev 21:8)

[redhotmagma]

Judgement does not imply forever. It is simply a determination. If He finds you guilty you face the penalty, the judgement isn’t the penalty. The penalty is the lake of fire. You are incorrect that the LOF is the final judgement. It is the final penalty from the final judgement. God gives the penalty that will bring about reconcilliation. Once the dross is burned away the fire has done its job, no judgement is still needed to come out of the LOF, as God is all wise and knows exactly what is needed. Judging you again would amount to double jeopardy. You’ve already been tried found guilty and paid the penalty. The good thing is fire refines so when you come out you will not need to go through judgement again, for you will not commit sin again. (btw I don’t adhere to a literal timeline, I’m just reasoning within your understood eschatology)

Lets say I rob a bank, and I get caught and go to trial. I will be given a judgement guilty or not guilty. That is my final judgement, I will then face the penalty the judge deems best suited for my crime. He gives me 20 years in prison. I do my time and the minute 20 years is up (when I have paid the last cent) I am set free. I face no further judgement at that time, that was done at my trial. I face no more punishment, that was also given at my trial.

[Michael_Thompson]

It is an apocalyptic vision, there is no literal lake of fire where god keeps unbelievers alive forever to torture and burn them.
If it were real, the whole Bible would be filled with warnings about it. That is if God really loved unbelievers . So basically, we have all people kept in the dark about this infernal everlasting lake before John got this vision, and still billions today who pass away without even hearing about it. Don’t bring up free will either, since even if free will is true, one has to know about these things to make the choice.
I really used to believe this junk, until I took some time to think about it, then it took me years to finally free myself for the paralyzing fear that it brought about!

[Revival]

It is an apocalyptic vision, there is no literal lake of fire where god keeps unbelievers alive forever to torture and burn them.
If it were real, the whole Bible would be filled with warnings about it. That is if God really loved unbelievers . So basically, we have all people kept in the dark about this infernal everlasting lake before John got this vision, and still billions today who pass away without even hearing about it. Don’t bring up free will either, since even if free will is true, one has to know about these things to make the choice.
I really used to believe this junk, until I took some time to think about it, then it took me years to finally free myself for the paralyzing fear that it brought about!

Hi Michael
I respectfully, disagree.

[Michael_Thompson]

Hi Michael
I respectfully, disagree.

Oh no!

[Revival]

Judgement does not imply forever. It is simply a determination. If He finds you guilty you face the penalty, the judgement isn’t the penalty. The penalty is the lake of fire. You are incorrect that the LOF is the final judgement. It is the final penalty from the final judgement. God gives the penalty that will bring about reconcilliation. Once the dross is burned away the fire has done its job, no judgement is still needed to come out of the LOF, as God is all wise and knows exactly what is needed. Judging you again would amount to double jeopardy. You’ve already been tried found guilty and paid the penalty. The good thing is fire refines so when you come out you will not need to go through judgement again, for you will not commit sin again. (btw I don’t adhere to a literal timeline, I’m just reasoning within your understood eschatology)

Lets say I rob a bank, and I get caught and go to trial. I will be given a judgement guilty or not guilty. That is my final judgement, I will then face the penalty the judge deems best suited for my crime. He gives me 20 years in prison. I do my time and the minute 20 years is up (when I have paid the last cent) I am set free. I face no further judgement at that time, that was done at my trial. I face no more punishment, that was also given at my trial.

Ok, Show me after Rev 20:11-15 all the people who were thrown into the lake of fire are set free and face no more punishment. Do you have evidence of this mass exodus actually happening?

[AllanS]

Show me evidence of anyone exiting the lake of fire

Blessed are those who mourn. They will be comforted.

[Revival]

Show me evidence of anyone exiting the lake of fire

Blessed are those who mourn. They will be comforted.

Amen, but show me after Rev 20:11-15 all the people who were thrown into the lake of fire are set free and face no more punishment. Do you have evidence of this mass exodus actually happening, Allan?

[Sherman]

Also Revival, something I didn’t mention in my first reply is that Systematic theologies do not rest upon One scripture or even One book of the Bible, but are systems of values and beliefs that are based upon the whole of scripture, tradition, reason, and current expressions of the church. All systematic theologies recognize that there are “problematic” passages, even “problimatic” books of the Bible. And what I mean by “problematic” is passages that at face-value seem to contradict that system of beliefs. Shoot, Luther even appealed for James and Revelation to be removed from the cannon of scripture.

For me, it was studying what scripture affirms concerning judgment and the punishment of sin that freed me to have faith that Jesus really is the savior of all humanity, especially, not only, we who believe. I found that most passages that speak of the punishment of sin speak of it in terms of death, destruction, the wages of sin that come in this life, increasing bondage to evil from within and without, whole communities suffering under the judgment of God. But threaded throughout these passages are messages of hope, redemption, reconciliation. Even Sodom and Gomorrah are to be reclaimed by God. Even Hinnom Valley (gehenna) is to be reclaimed by God. What is evil is turned to good.

But I get off topic, my point is that UR does not depend on understanding the lake of fire in a specific way any more than ECT depends upon understanding the lake of fire in a certain way. And this doesn’t even take into consideration that the whole of Revelation can be interpreted from a Preterist or Spiritualist perspective, much less individual elements in any one of the given visions. How does one interpret Picasso’s Guernica? What does the bull stand for in that painting? Of course I’m not saying the Guernica is inspired, but it is artistic similar to the visions John shared in Revelation.

I respect that, Sherman. All the scripture you use to support UR must lead to the temporary punishment you say happens in the lake of fire. All I want you ( and every UR) is to show me this evidence to be true. Show me evidence of anyone exiting the lake of fire after Rev 20:11-15.

I don’t think that’s correct Revival. What Revelation pictures concerning the lake of the fire and the burning brimstone should be interpreted through the lense of the rest of scripture, not the rest of scripture through the lense of Revelation.

Of course, if one looks at how before John sees the lake of the fire and the burning brimstone, the nations and the kings are pictured as being subject to the wrath of God in various places, aligned with the anti-christ, but after the lake of the fire they are pictured worshipping God, paying homage to him. So if they go into the lake then are seen later out of the lake worshipping God, it seems one can assume they came out of the lake. But then appealing to Revelation for support for systematic theology is about like appealing to Picasso’s Guernica to explain WWII or some other war, not only who won the war but who was nuked and where the bombs fell. It’s just not meant to illicit cognative answers but emotional responses.

[Michael_Thompson]

I don’t need a proof text that proves God will deliver people out of the LOF, whatever that is. I can believe it based on his great mercy! Why would God all of a sudden hate people that wind up in that place. It is God’s anger that last a little while, while his love endures forever, not his love lasts a little while while his anger endures forever!
I would never torture someone forever with fire, while keeping him alive. Does that mean I am more merciful than God of course not! It would never even enter his mind to do that! Only Molech likes toasted children, and even he is more merciful that the ECT god, since at least the children are quickly burned up only to suffer for a short time! Let that sink in!

[redhotmagma]

Judgement does not imply forever. It is simply a determination. If He finds you guilty you face the penalty, the judgement isn’t the penalty. The penalty is the lake of fire. You are incorrect that the LOF is the final judgement. It is the final penalty from the final judgement. God gives the penalty that will bring about reconcilliation. Once the dross is burned away the fire has done its job, no judgement is still needed to come out of the LOF, as God is all wise and knows exactly what is needed. Judging you again would amount to double jeopardy. You’ve already been tried found guilty and paid the penalty. The good thing is fire refines so when you come out you will not need to go through judgement again, for you will not commit sin again. (btw I don’t adhere to a literal timeline, I’m just reasoning within your understood eschatology)

Lets say I rob a bank, and I get caught and go to trial. I will be given a judgement guilty or not guilty. That is my final judgement, I will then face the penalty the judge deems best suited for my crime. He gives me 20 years in prison. I do my time and the minute 20 years is up (when I have paid the last cent) I am set free. I face no further judgement at that time, that was done at my trial. I face no more punishment, that was also given at my trial.

Ok, Show me after Rev 20:11-15 all the people who were thrown into the lake of fire are set free and face no more punishment. Do you have evidence of this mass exodus actually happening?

Then when the son has subjected all things to himself he will subject himself to the one who put all things in subjection under him. That God may be all in all. The end (as far as we’ve been shown)

[Revival]

Judgement does not imply forever. It is simply a determination. If He finds you guilty you face the penalty, the judgement isn’t the penalty. The penalty is the lake of fire. You are incorrect that the LOF is the final judgement. It is the final penalty from the final judgement. God gives the penalty that will bring about reconcilliation. Once the dross is burned away the fire has done its job, no judgement is still needed to come out of the LOF, as God is all wise and knows exactly what is needed. Judging you again would amount to double jeopardy. You’ve already been tried found guilty and paid the penalty. The good thing is fire refines so when you come out you will not need to go through judgement again, for you will not commit sin again. (btw I don’t adhere to a literal timeline, I’m just reasoning within your understood eschatology)

Lets say I rob a bank, and I get caught and go to trial. I will be given a judgement guilty or not guilty. That is my final judgement, I will then face the penalty the judge deems best suited for my crime. He gives me 20 years in prison. I do my time and the minute 20 years is up (when I have paid the last cent) I am set free. I face no further judgement at that time, that was done at my trial. I face no more punishment, that was also given at my trial.

Ok, Show me after Rev 20:11-15 all the people who were thrown into the lake of fire are set free and face no more punishment. Do you have evidence of this mass exodus actually happening?

Then when the son has subjected all things to himself he will subject himself to the one who put all things in subjection under him. That God may be all in all. The end (as far as we’ve been shown)

I guess not. Let me know when you have found the evidence of this mass exodus from the lake of fire actually happening. Why is this so hard for you guys? God bless.

[AllanS]

there is no literal lake of fire where god keeps unbelievers alive forever to torture and burn them.

Earlier in the paragraph, John says the sky flees from God’s presence. Scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as the sky, so how can it flee?

In Biblical cosmology, a solid dome called “the sky” holds back the primaeval waters. The sun, moon and stars are fixed to that sky, and somewhere above it God dwells in divine light. “God is enthroned above the circle of the earth.”

At the end of the world, a third of the stars will fall to earth, says John, which would be interesting given the size of actual stars. Using the same cosmology, Christ ascends into heaven (which makes no scientific sense since the earth is round), and Paul ascends into the seventh heaven (the Greek celestial spheres.) At the end of the world the sky will roll back like a scroll (problematic, since the sky isn’t a dome of crystal but an illusion brought about by the scattering of blue light.)

The fleeing sky cannot be literal. It must be symbolic, just as the lake of fire etc is symbolic. In each case we must discern the meaning behind the myth.

[AllanS]

I guess not. Let me know when you have found the evidence of this mass exodus from the lake of fire actually happening. God bless.

Here’s the deal. When you tell me how a third of the stars can fall into the sea, then I will tell you how the damned can escape from the lake of fire.

[Revival]

I guess not. Let me know when you have found the evidence of this mass exodus from the lake of fire actually happening. God bless.

Here’s the deal. When you tell me how a third of the stars can fall into the sea, then I will tell you how the damned can escape from the lake of fire.

No offense, that is your problem, Allan… I don’t want your opinion on how you think the damned can escape from the lake of fire. I live by every word of God, not by the opinions of Allan. I want you to show me evidence from the word of God AFTER the final judgment in REV 20:11-15 of this mass exodus actually happening. Why is this so hard for guys?

[Michael_Thompson]

there is no literal lake of fire where god keeps unbelievers alive forever to torture and burn them.

Earlier in the paragraph, John says the sky flees from God’s presence. Scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as the sky, so how can it flee?

In Biblical cosmology, a solid dome called “the sky” holds back the primaeval waters. The sun, moon and stars are fixed to that sky, and somewhere above it God dwells in divine light. “God is enthroned above the circle of the earth.”

At the end of the world, a third of the stars will fall to earth, says John, which would be interesting given the size of actual stars. Using the same cosmology, Christ ascends into heaven (which makes no scientific sense since the earth is round), and Paul ascends into the seventh heaven (the Greek celestial spheres.) At the end of the world the sky will roll back like a scroll (problematic, since the sky isn’t a dome of crystal but an illusion brought about by the scattering of blue light.)

The fleeing sky cannot be literal. It must be symbolic, just as the lake of fire etc is symbolic. In each case we must discern the meaning behind the myth.

OMG, you said scientifically!!
I think we agree here Allan. Hey, if revival ends up being right, you can come come to my place in the LOF and we can party! He can come too if he doesn’t make it , and we can congratulate him for being correct.

[Revival]

there is no literal lake of fire where god keeps unbelievers alive forever to torture and burn them.

Earlier in the paragraph, John says the sky flees from God’s presence. Scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as the sky, so how can it flee?

In Biblical cosmology, a solid dome called “the sky” holds back the primaeval waters. The sun, moon and stars are fixed to that sky, and somewhere above it God dwells in divine light. “God is enthroned above the circle of the earth.”

At the end of the world, a third of the stars will fall to earth, says John, which would be interesting given the size of actual stars. Using the same cosmology, Christ ascends into heaven (which makes no scientific sense since the earth is round), and Paul ascends into the seventh heaven (the Greek celestial spheres.) At the end of the world the sky will roll back like a scroll (problematic, since the sky isn’t a dome of crystal but an illusion brought about by the scattering of blue light.)

The fleeing sky cannot be literal. It must be symbolic, just as the lake of fire etc is symbolic. In each case we must discern the meaning behind the myth.

OMG, you said scientifically!!
I think we agree here Allan. Hey, if revival ends up being right, you can come come to my place in the LOF and we can party! He can come too if he doesn’t make it , and we can congratulate him for being correct.

Not funny at all, Michael.

[redhotmagma]

I guess not. Let me know when you have found the evidence of this mass exodus from the lake of fire actually happening. God bless.

Because all doesn’t mean all right? It really means some? What do you think subjecting every ruler authority and power means? The same subjection of the rulers, is Christ to the Father. The same subjection is a wife to a husband, as the ecclesia to Christ.

But since that doesn’t lay out specifically fire. Zeph 3:8,9 shows what happens after the nations are subjected to Gods fiery wrath. They have pure speech and they serve Him with one accord. (I know you tried to answer this in the other thread)