The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Challenge

I like it!
Since God doesn’t seem to feel the need to reveal himself in any obvious enough way that there can even be a consensus on even some of the most basic theological concepts, I think I can feel free to believe whatever I think is the best human apprehension of him. :smiley:

Or maybe its best to believe what has been established in the word of God.

close! I want to believe what has been established by the Word of God, That would be the Logos, the Son of the living God!

I’m afraid that this is no more of a challenge than when you were posting on this forum as Aaron37. No matter how many incarnations of you arrive on this board, I find the same “arguments” from you no more compelling than I did when I became a universalist nearly 5 years ago. We’ll let those who are unfamiliar with your ways beat their heads on that wall until they get fed up with you as well. :mrgreen:

Thanks Mel, God bless.

Hi Aaron,

Concerning the expression “final judgment” (which you use in reference to Rev 20:11-15) you wrote:

Why do you think the judgment described in Rev 20:11-15 is the same judgment of which Christ speaks in John 12:48? I don’t read anything in John 12:48 about a lake of fire, a second death or books being opened. Nor do I read anything in Rev 20:11-15 about people being judged by the “word” Jesus had spoken to the Jews during his public ministry, or of this judgment being the “last day” (in fact, I read of three symbolic, monstrous-looking entities being tormented “day and night to the ages of the ages” in the lake of fire, which suggests to me that there are still plenty of days left while this symbolic “lake” is still burning!).

Also, I was under the impression that you held to Premillennialism (i.e., the eschatological view that Christ is going to reign on earth for one thousand years with the saints after his return). Is this correct, or not?

Why do you think John had “all of humanity” in view when he spoke of “the dead, great and small” in v. 12? And do you think this judgment is to take place before or after everyone who dies in Adam has been made alive in Christ, and death has thus been abolished?

Also, do you think John had “all of humanity” in view in Rev 6:15-17 as well? Because in this passage John uses very similar language, and refers to people who were considered both “great” (i.e., those who were rich and powerful) and “small” (i.e., those who weren’t) as well:

And I’m sure John would have considered the above people being judged to have been just as “dead” as some in the church in Sardis were (Rev 3:1-2).

Hi Aaron
John 12:48 describes the standard by which we will be judged in the last day. Matt 12:36-37 Jesus says in** the day of judgment**. Paul also speaks in Acts 17:30-31 he has appointed a day, in which the world will be judged in righteousness.

These passages point to Rev 20:11-15 as being the one and only final judgment or the day of judgment.

I do believe in the millennial reign of Christ but do not have the desire to debate it with your preterist views.

Because Rev 20:13 says they were judged every man according to their works. Everyone who dies in Adam will not be made alive in Christ otherwise there would be no need for God to open up the book of life to see if your name is recorded. Death will be abolished after the millennial reign in Rev 21:4.

Rev 6:15-17 is not Rev 20:11-15 but a picture of the tribulation period.

Zeph 3
“Therefore wait for me,” declares the LORD,
“**for the day **when I rise up to seize the prey.

Last time I checked it says as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. Romans 5 repeats the same thing like 5 times in different ways too.

You know its not a buffet line that you can pick and choose from :wink:

Paul was making a parallel comparison between Adam and Jesus in the whole chapter. Nothing to do with UR.

Exactly! :smiley:

That’s where you’re mistaken. :sunglasses:

Sonia

Comparing differences, Sonia. :wink:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. Keep reading the next verse. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward** they that are Christ’s **at his coming. Then the cometh the end.

This is describing the resurrection. 1. Jesus was the first to be resurrected. 2. They that are Christ’s at his coming. Notice it doesnt say ALL are Christ’s at his coming.

And similarities, Aaron. :wink:

What was similar between Adam and Jesus in Rom 5?

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. Keep reading the next verse. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward** they that are Christ’s **at his coming. Then the cometh the end.

This is describing the resurrection. 1. Jesus was the first to be resurrected.(firstfruits) 2. They that are Christ’s at his coming. Notice it doesnt say ALL are Christ’s at his coming.

Don’t stop there, Aaron!

The “end” involves a period where Christ reigns until all his enemies are subjected to him.

Then death will be destroyed.

Then Christ will deliver the kingdom to his Father, and be subject to the Father.

Wow, there’s so much in that! Can you see it, Aaron?

Sonia

Slow down, Sonia. The resurrection is being described in 1Cor 15:20-23. People are being resurrected in the order described in 1 Cor 15:23 to face judgment in Rev 20:11-15…1 Cor 15:22 states that** all** in Adam die and all in Christ are made alive. verse 23 states not All are Christ’s and then comes the end. End of what? Grace, this age and into eternity in Rev 21:4. 1Cor 15:24-28 is describing the NJ and NE in REV 21.

What was similar between Adam and Jesus in Rom 5? :wink:

Sonia

In both cases, the act of one man affected the rest.
Adam was a “type” of the one to come – Christ.

Not all are Christ’s at his coming. But by the end – when He turns the kingdom over to the Father, they will be.

Sonia

What do you mean by “type”? Not true, Adams act affected everyone, but Jesus’ act won’t affect you until you receive it.

“Type” is in Rom 5:14. KJV uses “figure.”

Yes, I agree, Jesus’ act doesn’t affect people until they partake of it. In the same way, Adam’s trespass didn’t affect me until I also sinned – several thousand years after the fact.

Sonia