The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Debate on Universalism at another board

Gabe,

Your “Sadie” sounds like a certain someone who used to be a big contributor of such “gems” on this forum. He also said Christians should be out preaching to the lost, instead of spending a lot of time debating theology on message boards. :wink:

It’s more than enough for me to keep up with this forum, but it sounds like you’re having a good time!

Sonia

I just realized that Sadie is Aaron37.

“What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.”
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

They don’t agree with you. It is what it is. You consider it fun, they don’t. Why not let it go?

What’s more amusing is that RevJohn does in fact have a scene, though it’s in the middle of the book, talking about all the people who have come out of the lake of fire they’re currently standing on. It’s clearly the same lake of fire.

I argued extensively from direct exegetics and contextual comparison (including a consideration of OT refs there) that this scene is a flashforward showing what the final result of the preaching of the “eonian gospel” will be (beyond even the last related scene in RevJohn, which is hopeful of this final result), before showing what the immediate historical results will be (which look so hopeless for the sinners involved.)

Not that this remotely impressed BAaron, of course. :unamused:

Jason,

Would you care to present your argument over there?

christianwebsite.com/forum/s … php?t=3708

Hi Gabe,

If you really want to throw them for a loop on the other board, note that concerning the Lake of Fire it’s even more important to determine “what” it is than it is whether something or someone gets out of it. Then note that Rev. says that the Lake of Fire and Brimstone is:

  1. In the Presence of the Lamb and the Presence of the Angels (14:10) -not the absence of Jesus and the angels but a veritable blast furnace of the revelation of the atonement and the supernatural benevolent provision of God. Also, where does Jesus sit (throne of God) and what surrounds the throne of God but angels!
  2. Death and Hades (mistakenly translated Hell in some versions) are cast into the LoF so the LoF CANNOT be Hades/Hell.
  3. God in scripture is called an all-consuming fire.
  4. Theon (Brimstone) means “divine-fire”.
  5. Theon (sulfur) was burnt by Greeks and Romans as incense for both spiritual purification and physical healing.
  6. Host sulfur springs were widely known for their healing properties.
  7. Torment, basinizo, speaks of testing, like gold is tested against a touch stone to reveal any impurities in it and to determine how much purification was needed.

So what is the Lake of Fire? I believe it is metaphorical for the all-consuming, healing, purging, purifying, fiery presence of God.

I’ve tried to join a second time. Still no luck. Now it notes that I’m using an existing email, which, Yes, I am.

Allan and all,

The following was sent to me today from one of the mods there:

Sherman,

Thanks for the advice.

I’ve noted a few times there already that we need to discuss the nature of the lake of fire in order for the discussion to move forward. But, alas…

Interestingly, God’s breath (his spirit) is compared to a stream of burning sulfur in Isaiah 30. Summarizing the chapter:

"In the day of great slaughter… when the LORD binds up the bruises of his people and heals the wounds he inflicted…

See, the LORD comes from afar with burning anger…; his lips are full of wrath, and his tongue is a consuming fire… And you will sing…; your hearts will rejoice… The voice of the LORD will shatter Assyria; Every stroke the LORD lays on them… will be to the music of timbrels and harps… Topheth has long been prepared… for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze."

We will rejoice in that great and terrible day because God will destroy, once and for all, our most dreaded and implacable enemies. Amazingly, this day of slaughter is also the day the Lord binds up the bruises of his people, and heals the wounds he himself inflicted. And what will the King throw into this fire pit (deep, wide and long prepared) which is kindled by God’s spirit of burning, purifying sulfur? His defeated enemies. ie. all those things that God hates with divine and relentless fury: sin, death and hell.

What a brilliant passage.

Great thoughts, Allan. I think you would introduce to the discussion over there some much needed elements.

AllanS, that’s awesome. Thanks for pointing out Is. 30.

The discussion seems to have moved here for now:

christianwebsite.com/forum/s … php?t=3718

Heck, I really need to just FIND the argument again! :laughing: As far as I can tell the first time I ever wrote it down (assuming you’re referring to the argument about RevJohn fore-showing people having come out of the lake of fire), was when I did so for BA. I’ve archived other exegetical things I’ve written about RevJohn, I need to archive that one, too, so I don’t have to recreate it every time.

If I can find the time and energy somewhere, I’ll see what I can contribute over there (on this topic? on some other topic??) Although Sherman has a nice succinct summary of the cultural/linguistic connections about brimstone/sulfur, too! Don’t forget the maggots!!–they could be very hopeful things for those being gnawed by them!

Yay for the Isaiah 30 ref AllanS, too, btw! Though I would include impenitent sinners in that list being thrown into Tophet, as I (maybe wrongly??) recall Isaiah 30 also does… :wink: Still far from a hopeless thing for those sinners when all the data is considered.

Jason,

Can you expound on why you think it is clear that the sea of glass and fire is the lake of fire, and that those standing on it were once in it?

Yeah, that’s the exegesis I need to hunt up on the forum so I don’t have to rewrite it from scratch…

The most concentrated comments I’ve found that I wrote on the forum (which I’ve now archived for future purposes :smiley:), can be found in this thread starting here and going on for more posts afterward.

I had some briefer things to say about that portion of scripture (Rev 15:2-4) in part 4 of my original four-part commentary on the end of RevJohn, a link to which can be found at the start of the comment I’ve linked to above.

Gabe,

Looking at the way the thread has run that “Sadie” (he who does not want to be named :mrgreen: ) started over there, I don’t see that by now there would be any point contributing to it.

In the Isaiah passage, we have God’s people rejoicing as He slaughters their enemies and throws them into the fire. Now, given the fact that we are commanded to love our enemies, how can we rejoice at their destruction “to the music of timbrels and harps”? I can see only two possibilities. First, our true enemy isn’t Assyria. “Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities and powers” that have oppressed us: law, sin, death, and hell. The second possibility is that we know our enemies will be saved through this fire, and that our prayers for them will finally be answered.

What absolutely does not compute is the idea that we can love our enemies *and *rejoice at their destruction with singing. That’s stir-fry crazy.