The Evangelical Universalist Forum

I think I'm on my way back out of Christianity

Practices Christian Living
#61

Dear Andre - I have felt this way myself (especially when younger) I wish I had an intellectual answer for you (or a proof ext)- but I don’t at the moment. The only encouragement I can give is that, most of the time, I no longer feel this way.

Some people find it far easier to feel crushing guilt, fear and self hatred than others (and I;m gald there are more robust adn cheery soulsithe world than me). TI guess that the Gospel for self despisers is that we are loved depite our crushing guilt, fear and self hatred - and even these very unpromosing emotions can be turned to good and be part of our healing in Christ in time and in eternity.

#62

“crushing guilt, fear and self hatred”

yeah, I can see that.

#63

I’m putting you on ignore, not because of your post, but your avatar is really disturbing. I hate that pic!

#64

Rob, I know this will sound crazy to more conservative ‘you must accept the truth, whatever it is’ types, but kind of where I’m at right now is that I’m just gonna believe what I want to believe, what makes sense to me, what gives me hope…

And honestly, I base the content of my faith and my hope on my own experiences, my own gut intuitions, and the cries and longings of my own heart, more than on the Bible or theological gymnastics or traditions or doctrinal statements…

There’s a lot that I don’t understand, and sometimes when I’m by myself I wrestle and cry and feeling like giving up, because it’s all so confusing and overwhelming sometimes… there are so many voices, so many opinions, so many perspectives, some that I resonate with, and some that I don’t…

But what helps me to keep going are holding onto very simple things. Like that I’m loved, and that I’m not alone, and that there really is hope, hope for myself and for everyone… there are things that I cling to, like that there is a God who is real and good and personal, full of wisdom and understanding, full of creativity and love, and that Jesus, that guy who walked around about two thousand years ago, has something to do with this God, something big, and that somehow I have this God’s Spirit within me, always with me, keeping me going, keeping me from giving up or falling apart… granted, I can ignore and quench this Spirit, but I believe that Spirit is always there, always here, inside of me, and always will be…

And I believe that love is the most important thing… learning to receive love and how to give love… it’s strange that someone who happens to be an introverted and melancholy loner by nature would come to believe that such a thing was true, but that’s what I’ve come to believe… I feel like I suck at both receiving and giving love, but that doesn’t mean that my desire to learn and grow in love isn’t there, or that I believe that I can’t change, can’t learn and grow, because I do believe that I can… perhaps learning and growing is such a gradual thing most of the time that you barely even notice it within yourself?
Well, I believe God knows better than I do anyway, because I believe God knows me better than I do myself.

I think one of the things we have in common Rob is that we’re both highly sensitive people. We get discouraged easily, and the very tone of things can get us down, make us angry, or frighten us, or both… we both don’t like the feeling of getting our hearts stomped on, or our souls crushed, by what others are saying, whether in a book or a sermon or in conversation or wherever we may hear it… and it may even be that those others don’t intend to stomp on our hearts or crush our souls, they may even intend to heal our hearts and liberate our souls, but that isn’t what happens…
We both long for freedom, and for peace… freedom from fear and the feeling that we’re boxed in, freedom from the fact of our brokenness and imperfection, freedom to be whole, to be complete, whatever that may mean, and we may not have any clue of what that looks like, but we long for it anyway… and peace, at peace in our own skins, the peace of being well, of being at home, of being at rest…

And the problem is so many things that we have heard, things that we have read, things that we have listened to, and things that we have had foisted upon us, inspire doubt rather than faith, hopelessness rather than hope…

And yet, I will say that I’ve come across glimmers and glimpses of reasons for faith and hope, and though life is sometimes a struggle, I do have reasons to trust, if I would remember them, and I have much to be thankful for… and I believe if you really thought about it, you could say the same…

I can’t tell you what to do, and I don’t have all the answers anyway. Like you I’m just a guy trying to live life as best he can, while trying to grasp and understand this whole thing we call life, trying to understand myself as I seek to awkwardly and haphazardly connect with others, and with God, while looking for some good news, some really good news, some great news, looking for love and acceptance, looking for meaning and purpose, looking for freedom and peace…

But I will say that maybe it would be best if you just believed what you really wanted to believe, and by that I mean believe what makes the most sense to you, and what gives you the most hope, what speaks to all those deep needs and longings and achings inside of you, and promises to answer them… find that which you find to be beautiful, to be wonderful, to be true, to be worthwhile, and hold to it as best you can…

One of the things that helps me to keep going is the belief that I’m loved and accepted even though I am so screwed up, even though I do fall so short and fail so much in my life, or at least feel as though I do… and maybe that’s something that you could hold onto too, bro. :slight_smile:

We are called to be holy, but that word holy carries so much baggage… but I’ve heard the word has layers to it… yes, it can mean something that is pure, but it may also mean something that is whole, or something that is truly alive… so perhaps God is not just calling us to be pure (and really only God can help us to answer such a call to be pure anyway), but also calling us to be whole (and only God can make us whole) and truly alive (and only God can make us truly alive)… in other words, God wants us not only to be right in our hearts and our lives, but also healed and restored, and living life to the full, full of peace and joy, not just surviving but thriving…

This is of course little more than a dream to us, that we may taste the potential reality of in moments but in the day to day often we may wonder if it’s nothing more than a dream…
But it is a dream that I hold onto… and perhaps it is God’s dream, his dream for me, for all of us, and he can make it come true, make it a reality, an everlasting reality, in due time…

I know some will say it is finished already, a la Jesus’ declaration on the cross… and in a sense I’m sure it is, in the sense that the ball is rolling, and the restoration of all things is inevitable, and only a matter of time… but one would have to be an idiot to look at all of the world around them and look inside themselves and say that all is well right now…
It isn’t, it just isn’t… watch the news, or look at yourself in the mirror, and that fact will become clear to anyone… God isn’t done yet… there’s more around the bend… and of course that’s where our questions come in… why? Why must we wait? Why must the world wait? :neutral_face:

Honestly, I don’t know the answers to such questions… but I do know that this is where hope comes in as well. That there is something around the bend, for us, and for the world. And that all those who have come before us share the same hope.
The hope that all will be will, because God is there and truly loves us, each and every one of us, whether we know it or not, whether we believe it or not, whether we accept it now or not, and somehow, even if through hell or high water, can make everything okay, can make us, all of us, okay, and well, in every way, and has all of the answers to all of our questions, or at least answers to the questions that really matter…

It may seem childish and naive to see things in such a way… people will say ‘hey, you’ve gotta go by the Bible’ or ‘hey, you’ve gotta go by science’ or ‘hey, shut up and get in line and get with the program’ or ‘hey, you can’t eat your pudding if you don’t eat your meat, how you can have any pudding if you don’t eat your meat?’ :wink: :laughing:

But seriously, I don’t think you have to let the opinions of others, including me, dictate to you what to believe, or decide for you what the content of your faith and hope will be… now, if what someone else is saying, what a book, like the Bible, is saying, what this or that is saying, what this or that person is saying, if it resonates with you, speaks to you, makes sense to you, gives you hope, then by all means, I’d say agree with it, give it an amen, like it on Facebook :wink:

But if it doesn’t resonate with you, if it doesn’t make sense to you, if it fills you with despair, then by all means question it, or even chuck it if need be, and even if it’s what the Bible seems to be saying, or what science seems to be saying, or what society seems to be saying, or whatever… or at least that’s how I’m starting to see things…

I’m not saying that truth is relative, but I am saying that being able to live your life without wanting to kill yourself or wanting to fade into oblivion is more important then having everything sorted out, or in other words, if believing in what makes sense to you and what gives you hope helps you to get up in the morning (or afternoon or whatever), then it’s worth all of the grief you may get from those who disagree with your beliefs, for whatever reason…

And personally, I think if God cares about and understands us as much as people say, and as much as I say, and believe, then he wouldn’t abandon you even if you were off a bit in some of those beliefs… Jesus said he came to bring life, and life to the full, life abundantly… so if some of our religious beliefs, whatever they are, are keeping us from living life fully and abundantly, then maybe he would understand if we chucked those beliefs, and maybe would even encourage us to do so? :wink:

Like Philip Yancey said in one of his books (paraphrase here): ‘I love Jesus’ magisterial statement about how the truth would set us free… I have sometimes wondered if the opposite is true, that if something doesn’t set us free, then it isn’t truth.’

I guess what I’m saying is that our faith and our hope is that that which is beautiful and wonderful and meaningful to us, that that which makes sense to us, that that which helps us to face each day, is indeed what is true, or at least something very like it is true… of course we may be off, but my hope is that it would be even better than we imagine it…

It’s not that we should ignore all of the darkness and the pain, but we need hope, and we need a little light and encouragement to keep us going, and reasons to keep living, to keep learning and growing, however gradually, in love…
And we need to believe that beyond the walls of this world there is a joy as poignant as grief, as Tolkien would put it, and that in the end what God has in store for us will far exceed any suffering or pain or evil or darkness we have known or ever will know… and that this applies not only to you and I, but to all people, throughout the ages…

So keep looking for good news, bro, and whenever and wherever you find it, cling to it.

And I know how heavy life can be, I do… but keep praying and don’t give up. Keep asking God, Jesus, the Spirit within you, to help you to carry your burdens, or drop them if you can… I believe God hears our cries, and will answer them, and though perhaps not always in the way we would expect, and perhaps in some cases not even in this lifetime, for whatever reason, still I believe he will answer them, and right now he is near to those who are broken-hearted and crushed in spirit, including you Rob… you are loved, and you are not alone…

Last night I stood by a pond in a park nearby one of the buildings that I clean, ducks swimming around, lights from nearby buildings reflecting off the water…
It was cold, and I felt anxious and tired and unsure…
But I looked at the waters, and thought of green pastures and still waters, ‘the Lord is my Shepherd’…
And I turned around and looked up at the cloudy night sky, and the clouds parted and I could see a single star clearly, shining up in the heavens…
I prayed in my heart, without words, and wanted to be like that star, to shine brightly, beautifully, truly… and in my heart there was the impression that this is where God is taking me… He wants all of us to reach our full potential, and will bring that to pass… we will all shine like stars, in our lives and hearts, when God has completed His work, and then the promise to Abraham will reach its truest fulfillment, when his descendants, that is people who are in relationship with God, will outnumber the stars in the heavens… sounds like everyone, don’t it? :wink:
I think it does. :slight_smile: And this includes me, and you too, brother. :slight_smile:

Until that day, we can hold onto hope, because the other impression I got was that I’m loved and not alone, and I can hold onto that and trust in that, and so can you. :slight_smile:

Well, I’ve gotta get going, as it’s almost time to head to work.

Blessings to you Rob, and may God give you more and more peace in the storms of life, and awareness that he is and always has been and always will be with you in those storms.

As Jesus said: ‘I will always be with you, wherever you may go.’ :slight_smile:

Matt

#65

God may be voluntarily suffering our abuses of Him (and our abuses of other people), but He isn’t doing so in order to hopelessly condemn us.

It’s tough being in a position where I am penitent of my sins but not yet altogether free from them. But cultivating love for other people, even a little, helps me get past looking at myself. Which is generally good for helping reduce my sins, too. :slight_smile: And, since I’m going to feel pain anyway (and having read a particular thread you ought to know what some of that pain always is in every hour of every day–even when that pain isn’t bolstered by selfishness on my part), I take the opportunity of pouring it on the parts of my soul that are still corrupted. And that helps, too.

I don’t mean that I’m saving myself: God enables and leads me to do that even a little, and moreso as I grow. But different people for various reasons, not necessarily by their own fault, grow at different paces. As I said earlier in the thread (quoting Lewis who was alluding to MacDonald), God may not be satisfied with anything less than a perfect walk in His children, but He’s glad to see us even weakly walking in totters a little (compared to not walking at all). He knows what situations and conditions you’re in and will fairly excuse everything that can be excused; if you’re handicapped (metaphorically speaking) in such a way that you cannot properly grow in this life, that’s a hard row to hoe but God takes the difficulty into account. Just keep tottering even a little according to what light you can see, looking for more light thereby.

Or if like me you can only crawl a little along a deep valley of sharp spiky rocks, then do that.

Or if like me sometimes you can’t even crawl but can only lie there trying to keep on breathing for a while, then do that.

Just don’t let your emotions control your life, one way or another. If all you can do is choose how to breathe, do that: it’s better than nothing!

(And don’t be satisfied with your sins. Feeling guilty may hurt, but it’s better than wallowing ignorantly or defiantly!)

#66

Thank you all for you kind and thoughtful replies. I will consider all that you have said here.

I won’t talk about this in the public forum anymore; I’m sure its starting to look pathetic. :frowning:

#67

Well, . . . it does kind of look pathetic, but that’s okay. We can all be pathetic together. We all have those moments. That’s why we need Jesus; we can’t do it on our own.

Look – I don’t know what you’re struggling with, and even if I did know, I’m not sure I’d know what to tell you. AND maybe I’ve already said this before, but . . .

I struggled with some stuff (pretty mundane I suppose, but it was a struggle for me) and didn’t seem to be able to overcome my propensity for giving in. Oddly enough, a BIG part of my problem was my belief in ect/anni. I know that sounds weird, but the thing is that for most of us, we believe we’re saved by God’s favour through the price Jesus paid. We are and will be forgiven for any sin we will ever commit, and I still believe we are/will be. But part of the Calv/Arminian mindset is that you won’t be perfect until you die and go to heaven, or until the resurrection – whichever way you believe it. So you tend to let the “little things” slide. It’s not that bad, you say to yourself, and I’ll have victory over this in the next life.

What we don’t see is that THIS is the next life just as much as the next life is the next life, and while YES, we will have victory over whatever it is, we’ll achieve that victory by shunning sin. Some of the folks here believe that on death you WILL be instantly perfected, and I forgive them. :wink: :wink: But I think they’re mistaken. I think we all have this journey to make, and like Jason said, you may feel you’re creeping on your belly over shards of still-hot volcanic glass, but you’re still in the race. CS Lewis also said something to the effect that he believed people who have more obstacles may be making more progress than it seems, either to themselves or to others. So if you ARE worming your way over shattered obsidian, bleeding for every inch, maybe that’s your short-cut.

Anyway, what happened with me was that I realized I would have to ANSWER for those things I was doing. And it wasn’t that I even wanted to do them or even wanted the benefits of doing them. I was just being OCD! As you can see from my NOT mentioning them, I haven’t achieved the state of humbleness Matt has reached. It wasn’t that much, and you’d probably laugh if I told you, but to me it was big. I did NOT want that exposed for all the world to see – the things I was/am ashamed of. THAT was my motivation and that enabled me to quit. So to me, knowing that we are NOT instantly, magically made perfect and “we won’t mention that – it’s in the past” gave me the extra push I needed.

Now I think you were discouraged by some of the things you read in G MacD, and I understand now what you meant. He was dealing with the same sort of attitude (0nly more so) that Christians today often have; it’s under the blood, I don’t have to stop doing it; God understands my weakness. Yes, He does understand and He forgives us for it, but He still wants us strong, not weak – holy, not sinful. So He will teach us in whatever way is necessary, and He will perfect us. We can cooperate with Him if we like, but we don’t have to. It’s just that it’s easier on us if we cooperate.

And now that I write that, I wonder if that might have been what Jesus meant when He said “My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Maybe He was looking at the bigger picture – at how very difficult things can be for those who refuse to cooperate with the work of the Holy Spirit. In comparison to THAT, His yoke is e-a-s-y. His burden is light. And if we try to perfect ourselves by adhering to the law, and to the “fence around the law” built by the Rabbis to protect people from even getting close to disobeying the law, that is a hard yoke and a heavy burden, too.

Heavier – heavier my brother – than what we are experiencing. I don’t know your situation and have no idea what you’re struggling with. Maybe you have chemical or emotional addictions. Maybe you’re suffering from depression. Maybe you have difficult people in your life – hard to love; hard to keep from hating. You should get all the help and support you can get in dealing with these sorts of situations, but in the end, if you cooperate with the Holy Spirit, even if it is a struggle, you will overcome. It may seem easier to try to keep a long list of laws, or to forget about morality all together and just let yourself go, or not to worry about loving the unlovely and being kind to those who hate you. I suppose it WOULD be easier for a time, but in the long run, life is hard. Jesus’ yoke is the easy way, no matter how very difficult it may seem at the moment.

I will be praying for you, Bro. And I’m sorry you’re going through a struggle – but rejoice, because it is through these trials that proven character is developed in us, and proven character brings hope (confident expectation) of reaching the glory of God. And you WILL achieve that holiness you long for. :slight_smile:

Love in Jesus,
Cindy

#68

Hi Andre
I wish you well my friend. I am not surprised that you are thinking of ‘backing off’. I have been reading your posts and from the very start, when you posted in “George Mac vs Grace” thread, I was dismayed by some of the ‘advice’/judgement you got from fellow travelers here.
One or two, felt your pain and responded in love. But others (and I suggest they re-read what they have posted) clearly blame you for your melancholic disposition. Their message seems to be “the reason that you are not full of the joy of the Lord (as I am) is because you are a bigger sinner than me”. If anyone doubts that this message permeates certain person’s posts, I will be happy to quote them but for the sake of not embarrassing such folk, at present, I refrain.
It seems that for some, it is impossible for them to believe that God may have made us all different. Some born to exude joy in all circumstances and others born to struggle in doubt and pain throughout their lives. For each, perhaps (if there is a god) they have different roles to play, different paths to walk, different preparations for different future roles but FOR GOD’S SAKE lets not judge one as a bigger sinner than another.
Soren Kiekergaard struggled his entire life and yet he has given hope to millions.

And so, I would say, love all these folk who are trying to help, even judgmental folk who believe sinless perfection here and now is the answer, -they can only give what they have received.

When God gave humanity the ‘gift’ of the knowledge of good and evil, it was at the same time a blessing and a curse. There is no doubt that attaining this ‘moral compass’ is a step foreword in humankind’s development, but it is an awful weight to bare - particularly for those who are desirous of self-improvement.
Likewise through the years I’ve noticed that some people are incapable of self-examination (see some at the start of an X-factor series!). These people are to be pitied because they do not have this crucial gift of self-judgement, but wow! they have a far greater propensity (in their ignorance) to manifest and promote the “joy of the Lord”.
They cannot understand that God loves variety. We all have different roles to play and yes, those of us who continue to battle with our carnal-nature may well be judged by others who long ago gave up the fight.

God bless you Andre. You are refreshingly honest and I continue to admire you for it.

#69

Well said, Pilgrim. I have noticed the same phenomenon…People who seem to be the most happy, joyous and together, just never seem to question themselves and NEVER critically question their own beliefs. I did. And I’m miserable! :laughing: It’s not all bad. I have a GREAT life and I love it. It’s just the deeper parts of me, the questioning part. There is no satisfaction for it, no salve to make it hurt less. At least, not one I have found. Yet.

Sass

#70

Yes - I agree with Sass: well said PIlgrim; that’s a lovely post (and Kierkegaard, most melanchony of men, actually has a terrific sense of humour - if you dig for it). And blessings to you Andre as ever.

#71

Okay . . . I’m almost scared to ask . . . . No, I AM scared to ask . . .

I must be one of the culprits or else I missed something because I have no idea what you all are talking about. I don’t want to come across as condemnatory, so maybe you could be more specific?

Thanks, Cindy

#72

Pilgrim, good thoughts bro (and I’ve really gotta read ol’ Kierkegaard one of these days, by the way, as he sounds like my kind of cat :wink:); I think you’re right that we’re all wired differently and that’s okay and that’s there a reason for it, but I don’t get the sense that anyone is judging or condemning Rob. :neutral_face: I mean Rob’s even said that he appreciates everyone’s comments. Right, Rob? :slight_smile:

And if you’re thinking of Cindy as one of the culprits you were thinking of, as she was wondering, then all I can say is that Cindy is clearly a very tenderhearted and loving individual (which I’m sure you wouldn’t disagree with, I know you like her too :slight_smile:) who always shares her thoughts in a gracious and intelligent manner… that, and it’s not like she has an overly sanguine personality… I know that she’s had times when she’s struggled and cried and wrestled too, it’s just that she keeps it all a little closer to the vest than Rob or I do… and that’s okay, 'cuz as you pointed out, we’re all a little different.

I’m not trying to pick a fight with you or anything bro, it’s just I think that Cindy’s a lovely person, so I feel a little defensive of her, that’s all. :wink:

But then again, I’m sure she could take care of herself if need be, as she’s a tough cookie :wink:

Anyways, with that said, I totally agree with you bro that Rob needs love and support more than anything else… and I’m sure that Rob would agree with that, as I’m sure that is the main reason he has opened up here on the forum about his struggles in the first place, because he is looking for love and support… sometimes when we’re really struggling and hurting, I think we’re not looking for answers (though we are looking for them) as much as we are looking for love and support… sometimes we just wanna know that we’re not alone…

In my own dark times, it was the people who were just there for me, listening, caring, feeling my pain, encouraging me and speaking hope to my soul, even if they didn’t have the answers, even if they felt out of their depth; it was people like that that really helped me, rather than those who tried in vain, albeit valiantly, to answer all of my questions or worse yet questioned me and/or piled on the judgment…

But I don’t believe anyone is piling on the judgment here. Granted, none of us are perfect, and thus anything we have to offer to Rob, or anyone else for that matter, isn’t gonna be perfect, but by God’s grace maybe the two cents that we throw in will be worth something, and may bring a little comfort, a little hope, a little light, into someone’s darkness…

And that’s my two cents :wink:

Blessings to you Pilgrim, and to you as well Rob :slight_smile:

Matt

PS And Cindy, you’re awesome :wink:

#73

Cinders -

Hello me love - my two pence worth cerinatly wasn’t aimed at you or anyone else (only read the end of the thread); I just liked Pilgrim’s example of Kierkegaard - who was a difficult man and a miserable one most of the time; but he had his moments when he shined a light :slight_smile:

And you are awesomely tender hearted Cinders - Matt is psot on - you are a big part of the warmth and welcome here to all and sundry :slight_smile:

#74

I second that :wink:

#75

Awww :blush: thanks. It’s just that sometimes I do say stupid stuff and don’t even know I did it. So if there’s something, John, please feel free to be specific. I do think that everyone who posted here (whom I read) was doing their level best to offer support, but like I said, we all have blind spots and it’s the part of a true friend to (gently and tenderly if possible) point them out to us.

#76

Cindy, dear sister

If there were more people like you in it, the world would be an infinitely better place than it is. Your kind heart has been an inspiration and a blessing to me ever since I joined this forum.

Don’t forget that anything John (Pilgrim) or Dick (Sobornost) or I (for my sins :frowning: ) or *any *of us Brits say *must *be read through the lens of a cultural difference so wide, sometimes, that it astonishes me that we even speak the same language as you damn yankees :smiley: . I *love *it that you speak from your heart. Even when we disagree, your honesty and kindness and love shine like a beacon, always give me pause for thought, and are more Christ-like than I could ever hope to be.

Love ya!

Johnny

#77

Thanks, Johnny – yes, I know that’s a major factor. It’s weird, too, because I always THINK we ARE speaking the same language – but no . . . lots of times we’re not! :laughing:

I don’t remember if I told you, but I went to Jamaica with YWAM for six months, long long ago, and it was so strange to hear the Jamaicans speaking to one another. It sounded like English – I couldn’t understand why it made no sense at all. It didn’t help for them (or me) to speak more slowly or more loudly because despite the illusion, we really and truly were not speaking at all the same language. We couldn’t understand one another. Even the couple of Brits we had with us couldn’t understand them. It still bemuses me.

#78

I for one wasn’t speaking about ANYONE on the thread or this entire forum for that matter, just general experience.

I know MANY Christians that it is IMPOSSIBLE to have any REAL conversations with about harder issues. Unbelievable to me how many Christian can’t admit they simply DON’T KNOW. They think rambling off a few scriptures and pat answers should just solve everything. When bringing up hurt, pain, emptiness, doubt, disappointment, etc., they just can’t go there. It’s like they can’t even bare to face the existence of those things within themselves, let alone someone else.

So, one person won’t/can’t see it, so I don’t bring it up and we all play these games with each other and talk about the weather. :unamused:

Sass

#79

I think that my last post was precise and needs no clarification. I stand by it and I also will add that I think there have been some wonderful responses to Andre’s cry for help both in this thread and in its forerunner - the ‘George MacDonald vs Grace’ thread.
I must now state that nobody (to my knowledge) has even remotely suggested anything ‘condemnatory’ has been said to Andre and so that is simply a distraction.
What HAS happened, repeatedly, is that there have been some (thankfully a small minority) replies which basically follow the premise that: “Andre is suffering more than me because he is a bigger sinner than me” (i.e. to put it bluntly “his suffering must be due to the amount of sin in his life which is clearly more than in my life because I exude the joy of the Lord”)
Now, I REALLY don’t need to take quotes to prove this point. It is blatantly obvious and making quotes would only be unnecessarily hurtful. Neither should those who have gone down this track pretend that they are unaware of what they have said in their posts - it was the wrong track, it was said with the best intentions, so let’s just move on and not repeat the error. But I want it to stop and my last request (many,many posts ago) has clearly been unheaded by those responsible.
In all love I believe that those responsible had the best of intentions and have Andre’s welfare at heart. But Jesus spoke against this approach to any infirmity (why has this man been born blind…) and we must be aware that whilst our own behaviour CAN lead to mental anguish, that is by no means the only (or even major) cause and we must never be so judgemental as to assume that is the cause.
Finally, I have little doubt that Andre would respond in kindness (he has shown nothing else and is an example to us all) by denying that any of the posts are hurtful or damaging in any way and that he is thankful for them all.
But that does not excuse the posters for making the judgement that Andre is a bigger sinner than I am which may, in the long term, and either consciously or sub-consciously, be extremely damaging.
I know that this will be a hard lesson for some (and I am just as guilty so I include myself).
May God help us ALL to accept guidance in all humility and to grow in grace to be more like Him.

#80

Its really ok; if anyone wants to say I’m a worse sinner, then fine, I take it as a compliment. I’m so burnt-out on this Christianity thing anyway.