davo said:
Eusebius, this is your moment. This is quite an interesting position, you have a forum full of listeners. DaveB spelled it out… Let’s hear what you have. 
qaz… I agree whole-heartedly that we are “free-willed creatures are entirely responsible for our sins, not God”, BUT how can you thereby maintain that God is somehow NOT morally culpable using your “first cause” / “second cause” rationale?
IMO this whole “first cause” / “second cause” mindset is a furphy and wrong-headed. qaz… your parents who made you are no more this so-called ‘first cause’ of your life’s issues than you are this so-called ‘second cause’. You have become fully culpable for your own choices as you have gained life’s understandings, and of course said consequences.
Thanks DaveB for finally getting an answer out of Eusebius to his sophist and desperately evasive ripostes. He has gone one better than Adam who turned around and blamed Eve… Eusebius simply puts his hands to his hips and gives God an indignant and defiant… “well, YOU made me this way… the buck stops with YOU!” 
As to the Judas question Eusebius…
You have missed the point completely because you have globalised in Judas what God had set in specific terms elements relative to Israel’s redemption i.e., “that hardening in part” of SOME (Rom 11:25; 9:18, 21) occurred ON BEHALF OF the whole; of which in a negative sense Judas became a partaker thereof. These “vessels of dishonour” — “from the SAME lump” i.e., Israel, are NOT to be transposed into universal principles and summarily dubbed across humanity carte blanch, as your assumption CLEARLY does.
Where and whenever it has suited God’s redemptive purposes He has declared and demonstrated His will as paramount over that of any man… again, in terms of Israel’s redemption — something that HAS BEEN (past tense) fulfilled and complete…
The redemption of Israel was in consequence the catalyst for the reconciliation of man.
Dear maintenanceman, I will re-iterate my answer for the forum full of listeners:
Dear davo,
Okay, I will answer you, then you can answer me if you want to.
Are all our sins of God?
There is the relative and the absolute answer to this question.
In the relative sense, humans do sin. Why do humans sin? It is because we all have death operating in us per Romans 5:12. We also sin because we are made flesh and know the flesh is at enmity to God, is not subject to God’s laws and is not able (Romans 8:7). Human’s will is the will of the flesh (John 1:13; Eph.2:3).
In the absolute sense, God is responsible for creating us the way He did. He created humanity flesh knowing full well in advance what that entailed. So, ultimately the buck stops with God. But we can’t just stop there. Since God is ultimately responsible, He did something about it in sending His Son to die for us and put the flesh to death and create a new humanity for all mankind in immortality and incorruption.
Dear qaz, thanks for your thoughts on this matter.
If we defer to the Bible as our source of authority, it does not say humans are responsible, let alone responsible for their sins. It does, however, give us an understanding of why all humans sin:
[size=150]Due to Adam’s one act, all mankind were made sinners[/size].(see Romans 5:12,18,19).
Then we must ask ourselves: “Why did Adam sin?” The Scriptures tell us God made Adam flesh and soulish. In Romans 8, Paul informs us that those in flesh, cannot please God and are at enmity to God and are not capable of doing His law. God fully well knew this when He created Humanity. Yet God laid down the law in the garden anyway. Also, in 1 Corinthians 2:14, “Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined.” So the buck really does stop with God. It is He Who created us the way we are. It is He Who planted the garden, put that tree in the midst of the garden, created the serpent to deceive, created Eve flesh and soulish to be deceived. This is so mankind would become sinners, learn from the knowledge of good and evil and be saved from it through His Son.
Eusebius said:
Then you said
It would seem to me that you are saying Adam is the source of the sin and yet want to go beyond scripture to say God made Adam (& Eve) to do what they did.
It definitely seems to me the Genesis account has God wondering why they did what they did. 
Gen 3:8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”
Gen 3:10 He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”
Gen 3:11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”
If we look at the possibility that this whole dialog and that which follows is a story of God’s dealings with Israel and what God accomplished and was done through Christ as to the reconciliation aspect of sin, we could start to see a real ‘good news story’ coming from the whole account. There was a specific prophesy dealing with the rebellious leaders of Israel that Christ was dealing with. I do not think the delusional / stiff-necked verbiage has anything to do with us today. It was about the Jews who were about to experience the wrath and condemnation of the God of Israel. At the hand of the Romans.
Dear maintenance man, God knew all along where Adam and Eve were. He asked where they were to bring to bear on the fact that they were hiding because they sinned.
If God didn’t want Adam and Eve to sin, why did He make them flesh and soulish? He obviously knew, well in advance what that would entail (Rom.8). Or are you saying God is ignorant and doesn’t know what He is doing? Are you saying Adam and Eve was just God making them a certain way to see what they would do? That He really didn’t know what they would do? And that He had to fall back on plan “B” and introduce the future Saviour? Are you saying God is ignorant of His own devices?
Neither Christ, nor Paul, nor any writer of the Bible used the historic account of Adam and Eve as a metaphor for Israel. That is only your own take on that. In fact, The writers of the Bible took the historical account of Adam and Eve as factual and treated it as factual. Christ and Paul treated the account as historically accurate.
Paul, a Jew, knew the account of Adam very well and said it was due to Adam that sin entered the world (see Romans 5:12). But we always need to look behind the curtain to see who is pulling the switches. The buck really does stop with God. “All is out of Him, through Him and FOR Him.” “God gives to all, life and breath and ALL” and that includes Adam. God gave Adam the experience of sinning.
Eusebius said:
There are no texts to prove your claim. Simply your skewed opinion.
You also said:
No, many have been trying to impress on you that He made them with a free will… the very thing that makes them different than animals.
You said:
Christ Said: Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (NASB) The Berean literal Bibles says: And answering He said, “I was sent only to those being lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Paul says in Romans 11:26-27
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
Now as far as the Inference of Christ’s Importance in what was going on at the time with Israel, you can check out Mat 1:1-17 and Luke goes all the way back…
Luke 3:23-38:
23 When He began His ministry, [size=150]Jesus Himself [/size]was about thirty years of age, being, [a]as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of [c]Eli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of [d]Hesli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of [e]Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29 the son of [f]Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon, the son of [g]Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of [h]Salmon, the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of [j]Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of [k]Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of [l]Heber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, [size=150]the son of Adam[/size]**, the son of God.
Genealogies meant something… They were not there just to show who was who’s daddy. 
If you want we can go into the prophets and show where Jesus was proclaimed for Israel. The People of God (covenant Israel) were started by Adam.**
Thank you maintenanceman for agreeing with me that Adam was not a fictitious person.
As far as the free will thing, you wrote:
No, I have been trying to impress upon the readers here that the Scriptures state mankind has a will. That will is the will of the flesh:
Joh_1:13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God."
Eph_2:3 (among whom we also all behaved ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the comprehension, and were, in our nature, children of indignation, even as the rest),
And what is the will of the flesh?:
“For the disposition of the flesh is death,
yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,
because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God,
for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able.
Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God” (Rom 8:6-8).
So, of course Adam was created with a will, but that will was not able to please God.
As far as God asking Adam and Eve where they were, are you saying God is ignorant as to where we are? that He does not “know all” as the Scriptures say? Are you saying we really can hide from God? Can we really play hide and seek with God? It is interesting how some theological constructs paint God as a buffoon. The Scriptures tell us God fills heaven and earth. And David told us he can’t get away from God. David said: If I go to the heavens, You are there. If I make my bed in Sheol, You are there. And Paul told us that “In Him we are moving and living and are.” So God asking Adam where he was was not due to God being ignorant. It was to get Adam to fess up that he was hiding for a specific reason.
Eusebius wrote:
Well, you are once again going the long way around aunt Sally’s house trying to say God made Adam do what he did. And I might add once again no scriptural proof is offered.
Let’s look at what scripture says Adam did,
Gen_3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
So Eve was deceived, and chose to eat the fruit, and Adam listened to her and chose to eat the fruit. Both did something against the covenant God made with them about living in the garden.
Even Paul recognizes this: 1Ti 2:13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
1Ti 2:15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
So let’s go and see what this has to do with Israel.
Hos 6:4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah? For your loyalty is like a morning cloud And like the dew which goes away early.
Hos 6:5 Therefore I have hewn them in pieces by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of My mouth; And the judgments on you are like the light that goes forth.
Hos 6:6 For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
Hos 6:7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.
So we see that what Adam did, was to transgress a covenant. And the Prophet here is speaking to and about Israel doing the same thing, transgressing a covenant with God.
Now we see who the genealogy of Israel is…
Starting in 1Ch 1:1 Adam, Seth, Enosh, We see the genealogy of Israel unfold, ending with **1Ch 9:1 So all Israel was enrolled by genealogies; and behold, they are written in the Book of the Kings of Israel. And Judah was carried away into exile to Babylon for their unfaithfulness. **
Once again I must remind you that you said:
Now you said this as a response to my quote
No where did I say that Adam and Eve were metaphorical. Also, with my few points above, including said verses, I would say that, to me at least, it is clear God Made Adam and Eve with a will of their own, they made some bad choices and suffered the consequences, and are shown as the
firstborn of Israel.
I must go now, I may deal with your use of flesh at another time.
Thanks.
God didn’t have to MAKE Adam sin. God made Adam flesh and soulish so he could do nothing other than sin.
Yes, and why did Adam and Eve choose to eat of the forbidden fruit? Because God made them both flesh and soulish.
because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God. (Rom 8:7-8)
So God is liable for what He created. He is responsible for creating Adam and Eve flesh. He is responsible for creating them to not be able to please Him. He is responsible for creating them to be at enmity to Him. He is responsible for creating them to not be subject to His law, the law He laid down in the garden. God gave them the will of the flesh so they would choose to go against Him.
That is correct. God created them that way so she would be easily deceived and so Adam would sin. So the buck stops with God.
But Hosea is not saying Adam REPRESENTED Israel. But why did Israel transgress the covenant they made with God to keep ALL the law? Because God made them flesh and knew full well they could not keep the law they covenanted to do. Just refer back to Romans 8:7,8.
Here are some other translations of Hosea 6:7:
(CLV) Yet they, as a human, trespass against the covenant; there they are treacherous against Me."
(KJV) But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
(KJV+) But theyH1992 like menH120 have transgressedH5674 the covenant:H1285 thereH8033 have they dealt treacherouslyH898 against me.
(NKJV) "But like men they transgressed the covenant; There they dealt treacherously with Me.
(Webster) But they like **men **have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
I don’t have any idea why you are bringing in the genealogy as a proof people have a free will. But per the above, we must ask WHY Judah was carried away into exile for the unfaithfulness as to their covenant with God to do all the law. It is because God created mankind flesh knowing full well in advance that the flesh is not subject to God’s law. Judah didn’t realize that. They figured if God gave them the law that He must have thought they could keep it. No, it was given so the offense would increase (Romans 5:20).
That is right. They believed the creation and sinning of Adam was an historic account.
I didn’t see how to take what you said any other way. But why did they make bad choices? It is because they are made of flesh and do the will of the flesh and the flesh is at enmity to God. Can a leopard change its spots? Can a man, made of flesh have a will to do the law and to not be at enmity to God? No.
I can’t wait. 
I like you Eusebius:
“God didn’t have to MAKE Adam sin. God made Adam flesh and soulish so he could do nothing other than sin.”
You have to understand Chad that Eusebius’ whole argument (cough) hangs on his own errant interpretation of Rom 8:7-8 where he reads the post-fall reality BACK INTO the pre-fall actuality… thus coming up with his concocted and convoluted conundrum; like jelly on a plate.
Well, He does spew jelly. I can attest to that.
That is correct. Do you believe God made Adam of flesh and bones?
Do you believe that when God gave the law to Israel through Moses, that He thought they could keep the law?
Do you believe this is a true statement concerning God giving the law to Israel:
Rom 5:20 "Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing . . . " ?
Do you think God never foresaw that those in flesh cannot please Him according to Romans 8:8? Or do you think God created man flesh and a couple thousand years later said “Ooops! I never thought of that!”?
Jelly is good.
I think the solution, Davo, is to set up a series of argument clinics. This way, folks can pay to argue and perfect the argument. 
So Eusebius… it would be helpful to give a CLEAR (not long-winded) definition of WHAT exactly you are saying constitutes this catch-phrase “in the flesh”. I’m not interested in hearing you parrot ad nauseam “the flesh is at enmity” etc… that I can read for myself; BUT WHAT according to your useage constitutes “in the flesh” i.e., what it it?
Good luck