Yes.
I have little doubt that He would be hounded out for His apparent ‘rudeness’ and ‘provocation’. I think it is very easy to adopt a veneer of ‘the height of good manners’, nauseating sweetness, middle class etiquette, and have it pass off as ‘christian fruit’ but
all it takes is for someone to press the right buttons and the false face-mask will very quickly fall off revealing the real nature of the person behind. Paint a lemon the appropriate colour and you might pass it off as an orange but give it a squeeze and you soon find out what it really is.
Point taken, pilgrim. Although one might say that acting with for example kindness and generosity, whether online or elsewhere, is training for genuinely being kind and generous (or should I just carry on acting like an angry miser until God miraculously drops fully-grown kindness and generosity on my head?)
But on the flip side of the coin… if squeezing someone shows the true colours of the person pretending to be an orange… what about the person who actually looks just like a lemon?
I mean, even assuming that Jesus understood nothing of the disadvantages of written communication in comparison to shouting at someone face-to-face, and that he would therefore - in love, of course - call people a*holes on a public forum (I like to think he would update his vocab, since “whitewashed tomb” isn’t much of an insult in modern culture) - how would you go about determining whether other forum members who do likewise are genuine lemons or just painted yellow but very Christlike underneath, given that your only contact with them is through words on a screen?
I’m not convinced that, in comparing Jesus’ genuine, 1st century, Aramaic/Roman culture face-to-face interactions with a hypothetical, modern-day, Western culture online situation, we are exactly comparing like with like. (Amazing insight, I know).
Hi Susan. You have given me some food for thought.
Perhaps we should just act as Jesus did - which is the title of this thread. Sometimes Jesus seemed to act with kindness, other times he seemed to act with unkindness but I believe that at all times He acted in Love.
Didn’t the Samaritan’s and tax collectors seem like lemon’s to the Jews? I’m asking myself how Jesus considered them.
Superb question to which I have no answer. If you have any further thoughts I’d be very interested.
You’ve certainly raised the issue of how little we REALLY know of a person simply by reading words on a screen. If it is what we DO rather than what we SAY (write) that counts the most, then we have very little true knowledge of each other. Perhaps how we have related to our partners (how faithful we have been), our family (do we have good relationships with all our extended family as much as lies in our power), our friends and work colleagues (are we held in high esteem), perhaps these things are crucial.
God bless you Susan and thank you for some stimulating thoughts.
Dear Stuart
Thanks your welcome
stuartd wrote:
thank-you for joining in it’s always good to get a few more respondants , thats a rather diplomatic answer you have given but I don’t think either myself or pilgrim would disagree .point taken.
But I guess Brother Pilgrim did not agree or perhaps misunderstood my stand because
Pilgrim wrote
Yes.
I have little doubt that He would be hounded out for His apparent ‘rudeness’ and ‘provocation’.
unquote.
So dear Pilgrim let me clarify. Though I have not been that long on the Forum it has been long enough for me to believe that Christ is already taking part in this Forum and so far I have seen no move to hound Him out!
By the way here in Spain we love lemons as much as oranges and thank God every time we squeeze one or the other!
With love and affection
Michael in Barcelona
very good point ! highly valid and for myself ‘‘taken’’, am I pushing the boundary though to still suggest that it still doesn’t diminish my point ?, exactly how one achieve’s or even goes about that is [granted] a little ‘‘up in the air’’ especially given your point.
WHERE’S THE LIKE BUTTON ? PILGRIM
So dear Pilgrim let me clarify. Though I have not been that long on the Forum it has been long enough for me to believe that Christ is already taking part in this Forum and so far I have seen no move to hound Him out!
**YET ! **
By the way here in Spain we love lemons as much as oranges and thank God every time we squeeze one or the other!
With love and affection
Michael in Barcelona
I WANT MORE SMILIES DAMN IT ! A LIKE BUTTON TOO ! 
Hi my friend Michael.
I have little doubt that Christ is at work on this forum and that it is membered by my brothers and sisters in Christ. Neither do I doubt that we are all works in progress and so that some of what we write may be of God and some of our carnal selves (I’m sure you don’t believe that everything you write is the word of God ).
But as we are not yet perfected, we have disagreements and even when we are perfected we will have differing approaches. I happen to believe that Christ adopted a direct, frank and honest approach and desires that we do the same as long as it is done to the benefit of all.
Others see this as rudeness and provocation and have expressed their desire that I leave. Now I am not Christ, I am the worst of all sinners, and in some cases I must have actually BEEN rude from my carnal self, much to my shame. When I have seen such a case, I have apologised but even my unqualified apology has been critisised 
…So I can certainly raise the question that if Christ, in flesh, were to post on this forum in the manner in which He spoke 2000 years ago, is it possible that his direct approach might get Him into trouble?
I happen to believe that He would be hounded out of this forum just as surely as He would not be tolerated in almost any church. Yes, that is a hard pill to swallow, but all I am saying is that both I and my brothers and sisters in Christ have a long way to go before we are in complete subjection under the authority of the Father.
I acknowledge that personally every day because I need to remind myself of how much work still remains to be done in me.
As for oranges and lemons, I couldn’t agree more that lemon’s have tremendous value - not just in Spain. Quite so, and well said! But what is entirely wrong is if one fruit (or person) pretends to be what it (or he/she) is not.
My resounding ‘Yes’ was as much to Stuart’s comment re your diplomacy as to anything else but I have a question for you. Would you think Jesus would have faired well as a diplomat?
God bless you
P.S. Yes Stuart - I would LOVE a thanks (or ‘Amen’) button.
part of my point pilgrim is that if we were ‘‘more like Jesus’’ quiet possibly the only ones who would be infuriated with us and possibly want to slap us would be those who claim to represent GOD, perhaps its just me but I seem to have the ability perhaps to some extent the desire to make christians hate me
Dear John,
Thank you for writing at length to explain why you feel so strongly that Christ would be hounded from this Forum. Everything is possible and I now understand why you feel this way.
Who knows what Christ makes of our debates, so why not differing views on what would happen if He were to start writing Himself. As you say “we are not yet perfected”, so personally , I believe this Forum would humbly and thankfully take His presence as an amazing opportunity whatever truths we may consequently learn about ourselves and lessons we may be given, and however and in whatever manner we may be chided.
Call me “diplomatic” ! Call you “rude”.! Well it’s just the way one writes! Anything wrong with that? If it is felt to be so and offends, then sorry about that. I always look forward to and LIKE your posts
By the way Stuart can you please put me right on how to transfer smiles to text - I click and drag. also copy and paste, but without result! I fully agree good to have a laugh and a smile. I bet God does so, sometimes, during our debates!
Dear Pilgrim . you ask “would I think Jesus would have fared well as a diplomat?” Who knows? But God forbid that He would be kidnapped (as many diplomats are) as well as being hounded out of the Forum!!! (Stuart -lots of smileys please!)
Dear Pilgrim one more point ref your post! How can I believe what I write is written by God, and how can you believe that you are the worst of sinners! Both impossible! Unbelievable!
Love to you Brothers and THANKS!
Michael in Barcelona
.
I too would like a thanks button. On other forums I use those much more than I actually post!
Stuart, you’re right, the way Jesus would or wouldn’t be treated online doesn’t detract from your point that being more like him doesn’t necessarily mean we aim to be nicer. (My father-in-law once said that Christianity was all about being nice to each other. Mm, not quite.)
Also I love lemons - and Pilgrim I wouldn’t want to see you chucked out of the forum, even if we disagree!
Perhaps the distinction between being more like Jesus and just being nicer is not in how we see others but in how we see ourselves. So I can’t say that Stuart (or Michael, or Pilgrim) is more or less like Jesus, I just have to aim to love them no matter how lemony they may look, and not judge them. Whilst examining my own Christlikeness and aiming to be more like him by doing what I (think I) see the Father doing, even if that gets me in trouble. And, as we all have different gifts, what I see the Father doing, through my own “glass, darkly” as it were, will not be exactly the same as what any of the rest of you see him doing. Perhaps for me it would be a sin to give in to the side of me that really likes to put someone else in their place, whereas for someone else giving an honest, direct opinion (exhortation is a gift after all) would be what they see the Father doing. Does that sound like it’s in something like the right ballpark? If so, then I think the range of responses on this thread is a testimony to the many-facetedness of God. We are all like him in different ways. 
AMEN Susan and THANKS!
Stuart, you’re right, the way Jesus would or wouldn’t be treated online doesn’t detract from your point that being more like him doesn’t necessarily mean we aim to be nicer. (My father-in-law once said that Christianity was all about being nice to each other. Mm, not quite.)
here here !!! , but I would go a tad further in the explanation and say that, intertwined with what I am getting at, is the concept of ‘‘loving GOD more than your fellow man’’ !, and intertwined yet further is the concept of ‘‘truth’’ , take for example
U.R. if I love GOD and U.R. is true as I believe it is, then at what point do I stand up for it ?, and how do I interact with other believers or as the case may be NOT interact with them ? 
[smilies to the right click on the one you want!] for some universalists fellowshipping with pretty much anyone doesn’t seem to pose too much of an issue , but I am very much the reverse of this ! so using a similar example with my pacifist friend whom I presented an extremely strong argument that he simply couldn’t get round without making himself look bad , he became so enraged [so much for being a lover of peace] that he ended up cursing me . I got the impression that the steam was flying out of his ears and one of his eyes were twitching as he hastily typed his venomous reply . I’m sure he would have punched me if I was in front of him, thus who was being ‘‘more like Jesus’’ and who was being more like the religious zealots of Jesus’s day ! I believe part of the reason why is because he believed something false , I believe the position I put forward is far more accurate to the truth.
Call me “diplomatic” ! Call you “rude”.!
I’m sorry but I don’t see that either by myself or by pilgrim
smiles to the right click on the one you want. 
Stuart and Pilgrim
So sorry I was off track there. Ref rudeness I was referring back to an earlier post by you dear Brother John when you say sometimes your frank and honest comments are taken sometimes as rudeness! I take your posts as very stimulating and helpful. Also I appreciate and like the sense of humour! Apologies for my remark being muddled and out of place. No offence meant at all.
quote=“stuartd”]Call me “diplomatic” ! Call you “rude”.!
I’m sorry but I don’t see that either by myself or by pilgrim
smiles to the right click on the one you want. h
Thanks Stuart. When I press, as in this case red face, out pops on the text as I write but not the face which hopefully comes out when submitted!
God bless
Michael in Barcelona
So sorry I was off track there. Ref rudeness I was referring back to an earlier post by you dear Brother John when you say sometimes your frank and honest comments are taken sometimes as rudeness! I take your posts as very stimulating and helpful. Also I appreciate and like the sense of humour! Apologies for my remark being muddled and out of place. No offence meant at all.
perhaps it was myself who was a bit off as in I may have taken your comment in the wrong way, so perhaps being ‘‘more like Jesus’’ in this instance!, the responce called for is far more humble that the one I’m getting at in the post above . So there is no need to appologise !.p.s. who’s John ?
quote=“stuartd”]Call me “diplomatic” ! Call you “rude”.!
I’m sorry but I don’t see that either by myself or by pilgrim
smiles to the right click on the one you want. h
Thanks Stuart. When I press, as in this case red face, out pops on the text as I write but not the face which hopefully comes out when submitted!
God bless
Michael in Barcelona
You are not alone my brother in Christ and fellow traveler.
Isn’t it true that it was (in main) the religious people who hated Christ and gave Him much grief because He would not follow their social morays etc? I don’t think you or I should be surprised by religious folk hating us.
Didn’t Richard Dawkins say words to the effect that a person who wants to be bad, can easily be so, but it takes religion to turn a person who wants to be good into a thoroughly bad person?
Only religious people could come up with the obnoxious idea that one can love another person whilst at the same time hating them (“disliking” them). It is a fact that the majority of people active on this forum actually believe and promote this idea.
I remain shocked and appalled by the idea that any so called ‘christian’ can convince herself that she is loving with a godly love whilst consciously and contentedly harbouring feelings of hatred towards another soul. I think it is a cop-out.
We all find people in our lives who we admire deeply for their fruit (regardless of what badge they wear ). If we are highly respected by these people, whose lives are an example to us all, then let the religious hate us (whilst loving ), let them throw their stones, enough for us that we are true to ourselves and to the God we serve in good conscience.
God bless you
Pilgrim (aka John)
You are more than kind my brother Michael (or should I call you San Miguel)
Pilgrim (aka John )
John
As one of the 85% (on average) of so-called christians on this forum who is perfectly comfortable to harbour, nay promote, the obnoxious idea that it is possible to love someone while disliking them, I am puzzled by your continued stance on this issue.
I had thought we were getting somewhere on the ‘love yet dislike’ thread itself. It seems I am mistaken. Just to reiterate, in case you or anybody else aren’t fully up to speed with that lengthy discussion, my position is that loving somebody, in the sense of Christian agape love, is entirely compatible with disliking them as a person. And disliking them is not hating them.
A simple, topical example from the real world will illustrate:
I vehemently dislike moors murderer Ian Brady. I also vehemently disliked his partner in crime Myra Hindley while she was alive. I vehemently disliked the horrible things they did, and consequently vehemently disliked them as people. For as far as I am concerned, the person and their actions cannot be separated. They are as intrinsically interdependent as the proverbial chicken and the proverbial egg.
Now you might argue that since Brady has been declared clinically insane by a court, his actions are somehow less culpable than Hindley’s. I would agree. If one accepts that a person – any person – is not in control of their mental faculties while carrying out an action – any action – then in what meaningful sense can we ‘blame’ that person for that action, or hold them responsible for it, however morally repugnant we find it?
I don’t know, I’m not a criminal psychologist. But I do know that as Christians we are commanded to love that person despite their morally repugnant, if not morally culpable, actions. That means treating them with kindness and respect and care, even while – say – imprisoning them.
And harder even than this, we are commanded to love not only Brady, the insane murderer, but Hindley also. And without the defence of diminished responsibility, Hindley’s crimes seem all the more heinous, do they not?
Now as to whether I did, or could, ‘love’ Brady and Hindley (as Lord Longford did, in Hindley’s case, at least), I confess I just don’t know. I certainly found the red top press’s obsessive vilification of Hindley pretty nauseating. I guess the best I could say is that I would have done the best I could.
But of this I am certain: my loving (or not loving) Brady and Hindley is in no way contingent on me liking (or disliking) them. And not only is it not contingent, it isn’t in fact related at all. The two attitudes – or positions, or actions, or however you wish to classify them – are distinct, separate. (They aren’t always, or even often, of course: I imagine that most of the people we love we also like. But not all of them.)
As I have said before on the other thread, you seem determined to conflate the words loving and liking, and indeed the words disliking and hating, to such a degree that your original question becomes, in effect, ‘can we love someone while not loving them’ – surely a meaningless pleonasm.
Or am I misrepresenting you?
All the best
Johnny
Dear Brother Pilgrim - John
Let me deviate before further comment on this thread!
Here in Barcelona we are governed in part by the autonomous region of Catalunya whose people are very independently minded with their own language Catalán as different to Spanish as Portugues is to Italian but all the same based on Latin hence many similarities. Well the Catalan Govt known as El Generalitad have their own website which some more openly minded Catalan suggested that few people in the world could understand the content all written in Ctalán, and suggested there should be an option in English (note not in Spanish!). This was agreed and guess who was used to translate (no not me!)? Can you believe it - GOOGLE. It turned out to be reasonably understandable except for the names of the minister known as consellers. One whose real name in Catalan is Jose Maria Pelegri came out on the web as Joseph and Mary Pilgrim - he was not amused. But things stick and some now call him Merry Pilgrim!
Well now to your posts first you kind salutation to me! At once thanks but I am no Saint!!
Secondly yours to Stuart which, for my ease reference in reply, is here quoted in full:
by pilgrim » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:53 pm
stuartd wrote:
part of my point pilgrim is that if we were ‘‘more like Jesus’’ quiet possibly the only ones who would be infuriated with us and possibly want to slap us would be those who claim to represent GOD, perhaps its just me but I seem to have the ability perhaps to some extent the desire to make christians hate me
Pilgrim wrote to Stuart::
You are not alone my brother in Christ and fellow traveler.
Isn’t it true that it was (in main) the religious people who hated Christ and gave Him much grief because He would not follow their social morays etc? I don’t think you or I should be surprised by religious folk hating us.
Didn’t Richard Dawkins say words to the effect that a person who wants to be bad, can easily be so, but it takes religion to turn a person who wants to be good into a thoroughly bad person?
Only religious people could come up with the obnoxious idea that one can love another person whilst at the same time hating them (“disliking” them). It is a fact that the majority of people active on this forum actually believe and promote this idea.
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3118
I remain shocked and appalled by the idea that any so called ‘christian’ can convince herself that she is loving with a godly love whilst consciously and contentedly harbouring feelings of hatred towards another soul. I think it is a cop-out.
We all find people in our lives who we admire deeply for their fruit (regardless of what badge they wear ). If we are highly respected by these people, whose lives are an example to us all, then let the religious hate us (whilst loving ), let them throw their stones, enough for us that we are true to ourselves and to the God we serve in good conscience.
God bless you
unquote
I am no scholar so please take this just as a frank and friendly personal comment:
- Certainly in the Gospels it comes across quite clearly that Jesus was hated by the religious leaders, but I think you are a bit misleading in saying it was because He did not follow their social morays, etc. The etc!? It was His claim to be the Messiah, Son of God, and His answers when challenged for healing on the Sabbath, forgivng the prostitute; for so many things that put an entirely new light on God, for example God’s love inclusive not exclusive to the “chosen” etc etc, love your enemies and so on. Further they hated him because they feared for their own positions of power. Well I am sure you agree with this anyway and are well versed in the Biblical references!!. He also spoke of joy!
I think the position now is very different to then. Christianity, Christians, the Christian Churches etc cannot be compared with the religious situation of the Jews when Christ came with Good News.
He would find Himself in a partially Christian, partially multi-faith, and partially secular environment. How He would act, how Christians would act is pure speculation.God alone knows!
- Religious folk hating you and Stuart - that is sad, so sad.
3.Obnoxious that some love those they dislike? Well enough said on another thread. In my own case I can add with shame that there are a few people who dislike me maybe even hate me but, and here is the shame, it has been as much perhaps even more due to my offenses to them that there is this estrangement. Should I not pray for forgiveness, should I not love them? I certainly do not hate them, nor dislike them for their attitude towards me. I believe Christ loved even those who hated or disliked him. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe He died for them, His enemies! John, Johhny, Dick, Andrew, clarify if you will as am getting a bit out of my depth here!!
- Do you and Stuart really believe that there are religious people, Christians, on this Forum who would hound Christ out of the Forum. If you really do as you have said before and implied in your post, then my friends, that saddens me, and it saddens me your comments about hatred or resentment towards yourselves. This is an exciting and stimulating brotherly sisterly loving forum, debates are debates, and there will always be differences, but hatred? Don’t believe it, dear Brothers.
It is this sadness why I am writing this to you,
With love ,
Michael in Barcelona