" Hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?"
And I really dont understand how this verse can mean anything BUT we are clay in the potters hands. Some created for good and some for bad.
ATR, each of these verses you post could have a separate thread discussing them in detail.
Many commentaries have been written regarding them. How many have you read? What were the libertarian free will commentaries saying? Do you have a response to them?
And we wouldnt be delivered from sin if adam âchoseâ to obey in the first place. Thus the fall HAD to happen for Christ to be a savior. If not then Christ was a response to the fall and not the reason WHY the fall had to happen so He could be a savior.
I said Id check them later. But as of now im simply discussing it with the people who are advocates of free will in this thread. If its easy to defend free will in these verses then it should be easy to explain it here just as much. And ive yet to see how clipping a birds wings and then telling it that it has the free ability to fly isnt illogical.
Either we are or are not subjected. Theres no inbetween.
In other words, there is no purpose, since it is not only âunbeknownst to usâ but you cannot even suggest a possible purpose God might have to, for example, have little girls raped, tortured, and killed.
The free-will explanation explains it fully and makes sense, whereas âGod did it for a deeper purpose which we cannot knowâ is nonsense as well as an attack on the character of God.
this only proves you do not read what I write in response Paidion. You used the same appeal to emotion on my post âim new here and want to share my beliefsâ and I answered with possible reasons why such things could be purposed by God for good.
And lets be clear. Im not attacking the character of God. Im stating what is explicitly said in the scripture and backing it with as much logic as I can to disprove the whole notion of âfreeâ will.
You said in another post âGod cant know what we will do since free willâ Id say that would be just as much an attack on God as me provided scripture that God purposes and creates good and evil.
Well, maybe God âwanted man to obeyâ but if God is like me with my grandsons, not much of what I would like them to be seems to happen right away. I have to work with their âfree willâ as you say to get them to understand that logic and perseverance and patients will be a reward. I tend to think that the Israel story is much like that. 
âWe must remember that Gods ways are not our ways. That there may be a purpose for it as much as it is heartbreaking to us. And that yes God can achieve any purpose in any way He chooses, but we are not to question why He chooses to fulfill some purposes the way He does. And we do not know, in our finite wisdom, why or for what purpose that may be happening. Maybe it produces some good in the future. The victim may use that pain to help another, start a therapy group, become an artist and help console another individual through their art, maybe it builds their character, gives them a chance to forgive, etc. Heck maybe theres a purpose for the perpetrator, maybe his conscious convicts him, maybe that leads to him being humbled enough to be given faith in Christ,etc. Yes with our God given conscious these acts repulse us. But that does not mean that it isnt for some unforseen purpose to us. Theres many things God purposes that He does not delight in, such as the sacrifice of the scapegoats, which was to foreshadow Christ. Or raising up pharaoh to persecute israel. He may not like these things but He uses them for a purpose.â
That was my original response,that was ignored, when you first pulled out that argument.
I mean by that very appeal to emotion we could easily say
"did God have to kill the first born of every Egyptian to fulfill His purposes?
My explanations are not merely emotional appeal; they are logic, plain and simple. However, if you donât think I have the ability to choose, why argue? For if that were true I cannot choose to follow your thinking and accept it.
Trust me I know. You are consigned to your beliefs given to you by God. I am consigned to refute them. Whatever the purpose of this merry-go-round may be.
" Hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?"
How does logic address this. The way I see it plainly stated is we are clay (clay cannot do anything on its own), God is the potter forming the clay, and some He forms into a vessel of honor and others to dishonor. Are we to say that the clay can will itself to be something apart or against the will of the potter?
For what purpose? If everything is determined they are just believing what God determined they believe, you canât change their minds, only God can. And why would you want to try?
Because, whos to say, that God uses me as a catalyst TO change their mind.
though I highly doubt it considering precedent.
Well maybe Paul was indeed speaking to the Israelite and Gentile believers of that time. All would certainly mean all to him and those he was writing and spoke to⌠If you want to expand the meaning, be my guest but you put yourself in the same position of many others trying to work out the meaning of something that was never meant in the first place. Good luck.
He would ultimately be the one changing their minds. Id be the catalyst in which it is done.
How would that benefit them?
Thank you for your response. I totally forget we had that sub-topic going in this thread 