The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Our attitude towards those who don't believe ...

Practices Christian Living
#1

I’m currently reading The Princess and the Goblin by George MacDonald to my younger set of girls, and ran across this:

I posted that to my facebook page and will be interested to see if it draws any comment. People often think we should blame others for not believing what seems so obviously true to us.

Are people to blame for not seeing truth?

I think people believe what they can see to be true, most of the time – but sometimes they purposefully “turn a blind eye” to something because they don’t want it to be true. But is that for us to judge?

That whole discussion between the princess and her grandmother is well worth reading: online-literature.com/george … goblin/22/

I think some of us can relate to this:

And I like this bit at the end of the chapter, when the Princess is worried about Curdie:

Is this how we should be towards those who disagree with us?
Sonia

How to confront horrible ideas and their believers
#2

The more I speak to atheists & actually get to know them, the more I think this statement is true. I think often there are subconscious issues at play too e.g. they might’ve had overbearing (often with the best intentions) Christian parents.

I think Jesus reflected this attitude when he let the rich man walk away.

#3

This is just what I needed to see today. Thanks, Sonia!

#4

A while back the Lord dealt with me strongly about seeing everyone as my brother, family, regardless of what they believe or do not believe. My brother is family whether he’s a Chistian, Buhdist, Atheist, or drug addict. And I love my brother simply because he’s my brother, regardless of what he believes.

And since coming to believe that Jesus really is the savior of the world, I have faith in God for the salvation of my brothers, all of them! I believe in the power of the Gospel to bring salvation into every heart. So my attitude towards others is based in love and faith. I have no need to judge others, to worry about others, to fear others rejecting God and me. I have faith in God that all shall ultimately be reconciled, that there truly shall be no more tears! I am empowered to love people and trust God to work things out. I am empowered to love people having faith that love truly never fails!

I am compelled by compassion to share this love of God. Coming to have faith in God for the salvation of all, even me, has been very liberating for me; it has liberated me to love people unreservedly and to have faith in God for the salvation of all whom I love. It was the final nail in the coffin for judgmentalism for me.

Negatively Judging others was something that I was taught to do since childhood. And the Lord has dealt with me on that in many different ways, showing me that I do not even begin to have enough information to judge anyone. I don’t know their talents, the secrets of their hearts, the darkness that they do their best to live in. Shoot, I don’t even have sense enough to correctly judge myself, much less others. Only God knows the thoughts and the intents of our hearts. Only God can rightly judge us.

Well, anyhow, UR has freed me to love people, have faith in God for the salvation of others, and freed me from feeling any desire or need to judge others. It has empowered my faith in prayer. And this freedom to love others has empowered me to embrace brokeness, to mourn the plight of others, and to trust God to bring healing, comfort, through the healing, deliverance, and salvation of others. It has empowered me to embrace brokeness.

#5

Yes, Jesus looked at the rich man and “loved” him, shared with him what was keeping him from the freedom that God had in mind for him. Jesus did not fear calling people to radical holy love, because He trusted that the word of God does not fail.

I always found it encouraging that it’s possible that the rich young man actually later repented and gave his wealth to the apostles; and his name was Barnabas! I’ve heard this is born out in church history though I’ve never sourced it before.

#6

Amen!

That would be very cool :sunglasses:

I also think treating Atheists with compassion & respect, & giving them the benefit of the doubt about their disbelief, is often pragmatically the best approach.

#7

Thanks for sharing from your heart, Sherman :slight_smile:

And I’ve always wondered too if the rich young ruler came around later :slight_smile: never heard about the Barnabas connection, but that’s interesting. :slight_smile: i sometimes wonder if Pontius Pilate came around too, for that matter. :slight_smile: or Barabbas :slight_smile:
have you ever seen the film Barabbas, with Anthony Quinn? great movie :slight_smile: the screenplay was written by Christopher Fry, same guy who wrote the screenplay for Ben Hur with Charlton Heston. :slight_smile: he was a Quaker, and probably UR :slight_smile:
check it out sometime :slight_smile:

Blessings to you brother :slight_smile:

Matt

#8

thats a lot of smiley faces :laughing:

#9

Wow, that’s a big can of worms in such a short question, Sonia! If you wanted to, you could open it up and get into all sorts of debates about free will, irresistible grace, original sin and much more.

But personally I do believe we have free will (of a sort), and that God does allow us not to see truth, to deliberately turn a blind eye to what we know in our hearts to be true. And I think he does ‘judge’ us for that sometimes. The passages in the NT about the so-called ‘unforgivable sin’ are pretty relevant here, I think. But of course, God’s judgement is righteous and just, and always has our ultimate good as its purpose.

As for whether *we *should judge or blame others for not seeing truth, the answer for me *ought *to be ‘no’ - but for me it’s very hard not to feel some degree of judgementalism towards those who stubbornly resist truth. But I have actually become far less judgemental of unbelief, of opposing views, of things I see as bad behaviour or immorality or sinfulness in others, since I came to believe in UR.

I know, I know, that’s pretty rich coming from Calvinism-bashing, Driscoll-drubbing Johnny! But hey, even though we can love Calvinists, doesn’t mean we have to love Calvinism. And anyway, I’m a work in progress, I’ve got nowhere near as far along that road as has Sherman! :smiley: (I think everything you say, Sherman, is spot on. If you’ll forgive me for embarrassing you, sir, you are a truly gracious model of non-judgementalism :smiley:.)

Shalom

Johnny

PS I have the great George’s complete works on my Kindle. I must read *The Princess and the Goblin *sometime!

#10

I think that the unexpected Spanish Inquisition had a bad attitude toward unbelievers.
youtube.com/watch?v=Tym0MObFpTI

#11

Great replies, everyone, thanks!

Alex, I thought of the rich man too – how we tend to hang on to people and keep trying to convince them, but Jesus’ example was not that – he just let him go. It wasn’t time yet.

Sherman, thanks for sharing that. In coming to believe UR I learned a lot about humility and graciousness toward others. Partly it was because I had been so sure I had the truth before and realising I had been wrong in that was earth-shattering for me.

Johnny, you “Calvinism-bashing, Driscoll-drubbing” insurgent – you’re alright. :sunglasses: Yes, we’re all works in process, by the grace of God. We’re all kids together in His house, trying to figure it out. “But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”

Another aspect that MacDonald is bringing out – the opposite side of the coin – is: “Can we take credit for being able to see the truth?”

Judging by Paul’s first few chapters of 1 Corinthians, if we are wise, it is no cause for boasting. He berates the Corinthians in chapter 4 –

Sonia

#12

Yes Sonia! That sounds a lot like a post I once wrote here. One of the very first threads in this section which I called
“How Should UR change us??”

This is really a much bigger topic than it seems to be and I really wish it was talked about more on this site… There is something so wonderful about seeing a new truth; grasping something that just rocks your spiritual understanding and jettisons you to that next level! It’s invigorating and liberating and you find yourself loving and praising God even more. And you just can’t help but WANT to run and shout this great new good news you’ve just embraced!

Except others are on their own journey, and YOUR good news makes no sense in their paradigms. And they look at you funny and have no idea what you are talking about… That can be frustrating for sure and we’ve all experienced it I’m sure… I’m not even talking about feeling spiritually superior (that’s another dynamic and can be quite harmful to all involved…) because of course some really are more spiritually advanced than are others.

I am curious though Sonia, why you confine this post to the “attitude towards those who don’t believe.” Shouldn’t that same gracious spirit extend also (maybe especially) to those who worship right beside us? I think we’ve all felt the scorn and derision and maybe even hostility from our fellow worshipers when they discover our UR convictions.

It seems axiomatic that we all learn at different rates and in different ways and in different orders. So no matter who you meet, some of the things believed are shared, while one is further “ahead” in certain areas than the other. Our OWN learning curve or pattern certainly does not, and need not, apply to everyone.

I once wrote, or started writing, an essay which I called “waiting for conviction”. And I started by asking (hypothetically) if we, or you, or I, have all truth. Have it now; right now. Well the answer is obvious; only God lives there. But of course it’s appropriate to desire progress along this path towards more and greater truth. Next question then would be why don’t you have all truth now? And again, it’s obvious that you simply have not been convicted of it yet. Can’t see it yet, aren’t ready for it yet, whatever.

In years long gone by, I wondered why we held such men of old as Abraham up as such models of virtue when he obviously had serious misconceptions about things like, for example, the status of women, and slavery, and stuff that might be considered “cultural” but which we today would consider patently barbaric and heathen. Yet Abraham seemed open to new truths and, while I might be chagrined at his belief system, God lead him to ever greater truths, in the way and timing that GOD ordained.

Back then to the question of why don’t I embrace more truths? Well, again, it’s because I have not yet come under conviction about them yet. Just don’t “get” it yet, or am not ready yet, or must learn a couple of other truths first upon which to build to that truth which you perhaps might wish I would embrace. This requires of course that we be incredibly patient – and gentle – with those around us; just as GOD is patient and gentle with us! And as Universalists, we have an incredibly confident answer to the question “How long DOES God wait?” – AS LONG AS IT TAKES!!!

So, just as I give myself a break in the awareness that, in matters of new truth, I wait for conviction, so too I must live in the awareness that others need that time/space/patience as they too wait for conviction. And my goodness; God really can be a slow and patient teacher. Why sometimes we might find ourselves wishing He’d hurry things along!!!
The other thing that’s going on is that our internal measure of these things is… ourselves. “If a dummy like ME can “get this” then what the heck is taking YOU so” long sort of thinking!!!

I really think that a big part of our theology should include the words of our Christ to the disciples to the effect that “YOU CAN’T HANDLE THIS TRUTH” (OK couldn’t help but think of Jack Nicholson in “A Few Good Men”) right now… Because isn’t this actually very gracious of our wonderful God NOT to drown us in all this truth that He is?

Anyway, I am aware also that this attitude is (seemingly) diametrically opposed the those who seem eager to go all “Matthew 18” – or 1 Cor 5 – on folks. But perhaps that’s another discussion…

Blessings Sonia,

Bobx3

#13

I know that since becoming a universalist, I have dropped my judgmental attitude toward those who don’t believe. I understand that in many cases, it is simply that it just hasn’t been given to them yet. Everyone is different and on a different place on the path. It is not for us to judge, only to love. God will do His thing in His way and on His timetable. I am to listen, obey and participate in that process. People are very attracted to Christ when we keep our own B.S. out of the way, and just love them as we were commanded to!

#14

I’ve just finished reading George MacDonald’s Lilith and I love the way he presents the most desirable attitude toward those who are, shall we say, not quite believers. The teaching characters give the definite idea that such people must be treated with love, but in accord with what they NEED rather than what they might like – in accord with appropriate consequences for their actions. I don’t know, but from this story I suspect MacDonald was not a pacifist – at least if he was, it doesn’t come through in Lilith. But despite the sternness, the attitude is nevertheless love through and through.

#15

Hi Sonia
"Our attitude towards those who don’t believe …"
I suppose I don’t see them as a group towards whom I could have a particular attitude or approach. We could ask what Christ’s attitude was?
There are so many different individuals who come under the banner of ‘unbelievers’. I hope that my attitude is to be whatever I am and if I have something worth receiving, then that will be enough. But it’s quite possible that they have something which I can learn from or receive.
On the other hand we have some ‘unbelievers’, (for want of a better word) who go around preaching a message that is detrimental to the Gospel of Christ. My attitude to those may be very stern, very vocal and very harsh. I see Love as having a hard edge when necessary. There are aggressive unbelievers who may be inflicting real hurt on other gracious souls. I don’t think it is loving to stand back or to pussy foot whilst people are in extreme danger from false prophets.
But what if they are right and I am wrong? Well that’s the challenge, but to ‘opt out’ is not the answer.

Great question Sonia. Thank you. Plenty of food for thought. I might add that I think God makes us all different and gives us different roles - each showing a different aspect of His Divine nature.

God bless

#16

I came across this quote as part of a larger quote that I will end up posting somewhere on the forum:

“The Church points to Christ who calls all people to himself. It is therefore not loyalty but disloyalty to the Church to condone any tendencies within it to narrowness, sectarianism, bigotry. A loyal Catholic is neither suspicious of nor indifferent towards Christians of other denominations, people of other religions or of no religion: if we are loyal to the Church, a sign of Christ’s love for all, we must go out to all, be ready to listen to them and learn from them.”

-Gerard W. Hughes (Scottish Jesuit Priest)

Wise words.

#17

I find it interesting that Jesus had a deep affinity for the ordinary man[who may well have disbelieved] yet held the highest contempt for those who claimed to represent GOD so I have more of an affinity for unbelievers even more so than that of ‘‘Christians’’ then again I lean towards the idea that a good percentage of ‘‘Christians’’ will be last [particularly ] the hardened types those who callously claim only those who believe what they believe will ‘‘make it’’ and those who don’t believe exactly what they hold to will be damned ,but perhaps this is exactly the way GOD intended it to be ‘‘Christianity’’ as the filtering system for humanity , :smiling_imp: the callous and/or gullible ! :smiling_imp:
but perhaps some feel almost repelled by such a sentiment !

#18

My thoughts on this are changing recently. First, as far as UR is concerned, it’s not really an issue…I don’t know any in the flesh save one and he’s a good guy. :slight_smile: Then there are (and forgive my crude labels) “hardcore Christians” These are the fundamentalist, church-going, devil-stomping types. Then the Softcore Christians who are somewhat disillusioned, don’t really go to church anymore, maybe some of these were brought up in denominations where God is a part of their life but not really their WHOLE life. Then unbelievers, unchurched, other religions, Atheists, Agnostics etc. (I’m not going to debate these labels with anyone, they are just examples of the 3 groups I see around me and I know they are generalizations)

Anyway, I kinda had this perceptions even as a believer in UR that I should try to keep company with “Hardcore Christians” or maybe some 'Softcore Christians", because at least we had Christ in common in SOME way. We all have roughly the same ideals. I would never shun or be mean to someone of another religion or who was an Atheist, but I probably wouldn’t PURSUE a relationship with that person.

At some point I just began to look at how people treated me. MAN I’d been screwed over by some Hardcore Christians! And man, I know some people who don’t hardly have any belief at all, but I can count on them. They will be there when I need them…ON TIME! :laughing: I began to see that WE CAN SAY WHAT WE WANT ABOUT WHAT WE BELIEVE, but it’s our ACTIONS that say it ALL.

So, I don’t use labels anymore to determine who I can associate with…If you are good people, you are good people to me. :wink:

#19

This is a great discussion! Jesus hung out with all kinds of people. I must say, though, that the scriptures do strongly admonish us to maintain a close fellowship with others who are believers. That isn’t to say that we shouldn’t hang out with folks of other persuasions (who would we be proclaiming the gospel to if we were only hanging out with Christians – a problem that the church often has), it’s just that we should maintain a close fellowship with “the church”, and by that I mean the church invisible, not a particular building. It doesn’t matter to me where a person meets. God made it pretty clear in the scriptures that buildings are not his main way of relating to people, especially since Jesus replaced the temple when he came to earth (that was quite revolutionary of him!).

But back to the gospel – the scriptures are quite clear about proclaiming the gospel: we need to do it! It’s not enough to simply be loving: we also need to proclaim Jesus raised from the dead to the world. It’s easy here to let UR get us lazy and simply to “trust God” to take care of business. Yet part of “trusting God” is us doing what he asks us to do and he asks us to proclaim the Kingdom of God to the whole world, making disciples of all nations. Yes we don’t have to stress out that if we miss a person, he’ll end up in hell forever, but we do need to proclaim the message and trust God for the results. It’s too easy for me to not do that since I am shy about proclaiming my faith, but I have to battle my personality and proclaim. What do you all think?

#20

You’re right, Chris. It may just be my personality…It may just be plain wrong… :smiley: But, I don’t usually share with a person right off the bat. I try to just take a genuine interest in them and see where it goes.

One time my church went down into the projects with a pile of homestyle cooking…Turkey, mashed potatoes, gravy, the whole thing. We wanted to feed them and share, it was supposed to be a monthly thing. We had rented the rec center and had all these tables and chairs set up with a live Christian band, etc. These people were just taking the plates and taking off out the door, we didn’t get to share at all and the people of my church were upset. We never went back. Well, what I saw was that we were there with a motive, with pretense…I never wanted to be like that again. Of course it’s loving to share, but I don’t want to feel like I am trying to get someone to do something. PLUS, I used to street evangelize at one point…DISASTER!!! Turned off more people than I ever “saved”. I really do just think it’s better for me to be genuine with people and see what the Lord does…Now there is a such thing as an evangelist…I think THEY have the gift of sharing in a more in your face way…But, that’s not my gift! :slight_smile: