The Second Death

[stellar_renegade]

So, where did John the Revelator get that fancy concept from? Did he just make up a phrase that nobody understood the meaning of, or did it have some obscure meaning within early Christian circles that isn’t real clear?

Just doing a quick Google search, I found this on Wikipedia, and it does have a citation, but I’m wondering if anyone can back it up:

Targum Isaiah has three occurrences. The first is 22:14 where the Aramaic paraphrases the Hebrew as: “This sin will not be forgiven you until you die the second death.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_death#Targum_Isaiah

Very interesting. The Targums were Aramaic interpretations of the original Hebrew. They would add some nuances to the texts that weren’t present before.

Given this as an early precedent for the concept of “the second death,” this may have been the concept that John was drawing upon, which is not so foreboding as many of the theologians would like us to believe.

[Matt_Wiley]

Pretty cool, bro

[sven]

interesting that you bring up this topic,

I once also opened a thread concerning this but got no replies

second death in the Targumim - annihilation

I came of across of this and thought it’s quite interesting, of course, the Targumim (aswell as the apocrypha like Enoch) have no authority on the subject but I’m interested in your opinions; these are the relevant quotes: tentmaker.org/books/mercyand … t_ch8.html (very interesting article, dealing with the ancient Jewish point of view on that subject, it seems they overwhelmingly tended to annihilationism) in another passage (Isaiah 22:14) ‘second death’ seems to mean transmigration of soul…

however there are two problems:

this usage of “second death” rather implies annihilation than universalism

the Targumim are of uncertain date, they might be older than the New Testament and therefore have no relevance

[Cindy_Skillman]

Do you mean the Targums might be NEWER than the NT? I’m assuming that’s your intent. But even if the manuscripts themselves did postdate the NT, it doesn’t necessarily follow that the concept didn’t predate the NT . . . interesting, in any case.

I’m not sure the second death makes much of a case for annihilation, though, as we’re taught that the last enemy to be defeated is death. If there is a second death, then the first death can’t be the last enemy – it has to be the second (or last) death – as the death to be defeated isn’t specified as to first or second. And if the last death is defeated, then its house is plundered and its captives freed, leaving none among the dead ones.

[sven]

Do you mean the Targums might be NEWER than the NT? I’m assuming that’s your intent. But even if the manuscripts themselves did postdate the NT, it doesn’t necessarily follow that the concept didn’t predate the NT . . . interesting, in any case.

yes, of course - postdate was the word I was looking for (rememeber English is not my mothertonque - I only knew “predate” )

I’m not sure the second death makes much of a case for annihilation

most instances from the Targumim acutally seem to do, except this notion:

The other passage is from the Targum on Is. xxii. 14, where (as in the Book Zohar) the “second death” is explained to mean neither hell nor annihilation, but — so shifting were Jewish notions on this subject — “that which happens, when a soul, that has animated a body a second time, separates from it.” *(1)

would be interesting to read it complete and in context

I only found this Targumim where you can check some references

targum.info/targumic-texts/penta … -targumim/

[Melchizedek]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t the Targums just commentaries on the OT? If so, it would make sense that they should support an idea like annihilation, because the Jews really had no concept of an afterlife based on the OT.

[sven]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t the Targums just commentaries on the OT? If so, it would make sense that they should support an idea like annihilation, because the Jews really had no concept of an afterlife based on the OT.

They seem to be interpreted translations

e.g. Psalm 37:20 in the Targums:

*For the wicked will perish, and the enemies of the Lord are like the glory of young sheep that at first are fattened but finally slaughtered – likewise the wicked will perish and be destroyed in the smoke of Gehenna. *

targum.info/pss/ps1.htm

For the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of Jehovah shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume, like smoke shall they consume away. (Darby)

obviously those who made the Targums interpreted this verse (and others) in an eschatological sense, interestingly also Gehenna is found, as Gehenna is not found in apocryphal writings of the intertestamental period this would further support that the Targums postdate the New Testament

when searching more about Gehenna btw in the Targums I came across this site:

tcc.customer.sentex.ca/VH/VH-ind … b_geh.html

concerning the Second Death in the Targums I also found this:

books.google.de/books?id=F0CkE_a … th&f=false

the good news is, that with Second Death, they hardly meant a miserable second life

[Melchizedek]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t the Targums just commentaries on the OT? If so, it would make sense that they should support an idea like annihilation, because the Jews really had no concept of an afterlife based on the OT.

They seem to be interpreted translations

e.g. Psalm 37:20 in the Targums:

*For the wicked will perish, and the enemies of the Lord are like the glory of young sheep that at first are fattened but finally slaughtered – likewise the wicked will perish and be destroyed in the smoke of Gehenna. *

targum.info/pss/ps1.htm

For the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of Jehovah shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume, like smoke shall they consume away. (Darby)

obviously those who made the Targums interpreted this verse (and others) in an eschatological sense, interestingly also Gehenna is found, as Gehenna is not found in apocryphal writings of the intertestamental period this would further support that the Targums postdate the New Testament

when searching more about Gehenna btw in the Targums I came across this site:

tcc.customer.sentex.ca/VH/VH-ind … b_geh.html

concerning the Second Death in the Targums I also found this:

books.google.de/books?id=F0CkE_a … th&f=false

the good news is, that with Second Death, they hardly meant a miserable second life

Yes; in other words, they were commentaries on scripture. It seems like they probably did end up postdating the NT, but were already being formed prior to the writing of the NT (During the time the NT accounts were happening and then subsequently written down) (the targums apparently weren’t actually written out until later).

At any rate, as commentaries, they do not share the status of inspiration that the scriptures themselves do.