Hello Matt Sorry this welcome is so late, but better late then never.
My name’s Matt too, but you can call me Edward if that makes it easier on you. For some reason I feel awkward calling someone else by my name, don’t know if you can relate to that.
Anyways, though I imagine that I would disagree with your theology on some points, I have to say that I appreciate not only how intelligent and thoughtful you appear to be, but also your compassion for those who struggle with the teachings of Calvinism, and the doctrine of limited atonement in particular, even though you claim these viewpoints as your own.
Sadly, a lot of Calvinists that I’ve run into in the past, whether through their writings or in person, have come off as rather cold-hearted and aloof to the feelings of those who disagreed with them.
But you on the other hand appear to be a caring and tenderhearted kind of guy, though I would have to say that, at least in my opinion, your character appears to transcend some of your theology.
I’ll be honest and say that I am more of an emotional person than an intellectual person, more of an artist than a scientist (though I certainly have my analytical side), so I couldn’t keep my emotions totally out of debates such as this.
And I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing.
You pointed out that when you were first exposed to Calvinism that you had a strong negative emotional reaction to it, and that’s interesting to me, and I think there’s something to be said about that.
I think, unfortunately, and especially within more conservative spheres of the Christian community, that there is expressed something like a distrust of emotions, or at least a denial of their relevance, just as the Catholic Church and the Puritans and some others in the Christian community throughout history have expressed distrust of or denial of human sexuality.
The ‘fact followed by feelings’ train often used in evangelism circles these days is an example of this attitude I think.
It almost seems, unfortunately, like a somewhat Gnostic idea, elevating knowledge (which is great and important, to be sure, but…) and shunning ‘the lower faculties’ of our nature, including our ‘feelings’.
But we forget that emotions, just like human sexuality, are unarguably God-created and God-given gifts, as much as some may disapprove of their presence in the human experience.
Augustine, who was the intellectual and theological forerunner to John Calvin and a champion of the view of eternal conscious torment, once said of the universalists of his time:
‘It is quite in vain, then, that some- indeed very many- yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth.’
(Augustine, Enchiridion, Ch XXIX, 112)
You can probably relate to his statement here, and may agree with it, but this is also coming from a man who later in life had just as low of a view of human sexuality as he seems to have had of ‘human feelings’. Here’s a quote about him:
‘Augustine deserves much credit as a seeker, a theologian and a writer. But honesty demands that we also acknowledge another side to him. “This Augustine who had made love to women and perhaps to men, who could not control his own sexual problems, who was constantly torn between lust and frustration, who could in all sincerity pray: ‘Give me chastity . . . . , but not yet!’ (Confessions 8,7), who only became devout after he had ravished whores to his heart’s content, when his weakness for women, as so often happens to older men in later life, turned into the opposite . . . , this Augustine created the classic patristic doctrine on sin, a morality in which especially sexual desire was condemned. Augustine has influenced Christian morality decisively, as well as the sexual frustrations of millions of Europeans unto our own day.”
(K. Deschner, De Kerk en haar Kruis, Arbeiderspers, Amsterdam 1974, pp. 326-327).’
Perhaps his low view of ‘human feelings’ had some connection with his low view of human sexuality, even though early on in his life he was a very emotional and a very sexual person?
I’m not trying to bash on Augustine, but just give you some food for thought.
Basically, I see some people within the church essentially condemning emotion in general as much as others have condemned sexuality in general, and I think perhaps largely in part because emotions, like sexuality, can be uncomfortable for some, because they cannot be easily controlled or tied down, and they can be messy and wild, and also because their presence in the human experience as God-created and God-given entails that God isn’t just a giant brain in an ivory tower.
And unfortunately, like I said, it’s a somewhat Gnostic idea it seems, all of this, having a low view of ‘fleshly’ things like emotion and sexuality, and a higher view of ‘spiritual’ things, as if God did not create the ‘lower faculties’ as well.
I guess I’m just trying to say you should take your feelings about this into account, just as you do those of others.
I’m not saying you should only listen to your feelings… yes, pay close attention to the Bible, and reason and logic, and tradition, and your own life experience, but also consider your feelings, because God may very well use your own feelings to get your attention… much like a sharp pain in the left arm may alert one to a heart attack, a strong negative emotional response to something may be alerting you that something is dreadfully wrong… it may not, but then again, it very well could be… perhaps something does not feel as though it could fit right in your heart and your mind, perhaps it leaves you feeling scared and confused at times, because it was never meant to be there, to make its home there, in the first place…
Jesus said the truth would set us free… but if something that we think is true feels sometimes more like a burden to us then a gift, or if something we think is real hope leaves us feeling hopeless at times, if not for ourselves then for others, then shouldn’t we have the freedom to question it?
All of us hear come from different backgrounds, and none of us are perfect, and our arguments may challenge you, or they may not… but when it comes down to it, what I’m trying to say is this:
Listen to and take into account the cries of your friend’s heart, and the cries of your own heart, and instead of dismissing them, albeit sympathetically, as merely human feelings, take those cries seriously, because those cries may well be God’s Spirit working in your friend’s heart or in yours.
And don’t be afraid to question what you’ve been taught, what you’ve read, what you’ve studied, or even what you believe.
And you and I both know from reading the Bible, especially in the Psalms, that God welcomes our questions… even the most angry and complicated and difficult ones… and I believe He is tender and compassionate towards those who suffer because of their questions… and so should we be, with each other, and even with ourselves, I think…
To sum up, I think part of humility is being open to the possibility that we could be wrong… I know I’ve been wrong many times, so I’m trying to stay open to the possibility that I could still be wrong, and likely will always be wrong in one way or another as long as I live. Perhaps it is better to not be afraid of that possibility, but instead to embrace it, as it is an honest admission of our very real limitations and a humbler approach to life (and easier said than done, but a worthy aim, I think).
And we can trust God (or as my fiancee Kaylyn says, if we can’t trust God, then who can we trust?) because He will be right wherever we go wrong, and I believe He still loves us and is committed to us even when we get things wrong…
To me that is why I have struggled so immensely with these things as long as I’ve believed in God, because I want to trust my Creator, to trust the One who put me together and brought me into this world…
And if I can’t trust God, then who can I trust?
This is probably the main reason why UR makes so much more sense to me, because it helps me to believe that God is truly trustworthy, and is truly committed to His whole creation, and will remain so, because His love never fails.
Unfortunately, the teachings of Calvinism and even of Arminianism make such trust difficult for many, because of the fear and the confusion these beliefs they adopt can bring to them, and often they can believe what they believe because they feel like they have to, and have no other choice, and not because they want to. Or at least that was my experience.
I think many of us say it is truly ‘good news’ only because we think we are supposed to think it is, instead of saying so because that is how it truly rings in our hearts of hearts.
Not sure if I’m making any sense, and this is already pretty long, but I hope that you will consider what I’m saying here as you discuss and debate and wonder about and pray about these things.
May God give you the courage to be open to different viewpoints, and to question your own beliefs freely without fear of God’s displeasure, and may He help you to come ever closer to Him and His will for your life, and may you grow in trust and in love for Him, and in love for all people, even as He loves you deeply and unfailingly.
Blessings to you, and again, welcome