It is not possible to bring glory to His name without the inspiration of the Spirit, but it is possible to say Jesus is Lord that does not bring glory to His name that is not inspired by the Holy Spirit.
If bringing glory to His name is the issue, then the confession mentioned in Philippians 2:11
(and [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father)
implies much more than a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is Lord, since it brings glory to God the Father. It implies a sincere statement of belief inspired by the Spirit.
to which lancia responded:
Perhaps it was when salvation by faith began to be extended beyond this life that Christian theology really began to get off track (which, unfortunately, didn’t take very long!). This may have been the “open door” through which the doctrine of ECT so easily made its way into orthodoxy.
As I read scripture I don’t get the sense that God’s wrath is simply the consequences of sin. Rather I find that the rain which rains upon the unjust and the riches they gain brings about a great sense of joy which in turn makes it very difficult to enter God’s kingdom.
As I understand UU it trys to imply that such people are miserable, not at peace, lack of God’s joy. But this seems to me to be irrelevant. Adolph Hitler may have lived a murderes life but the fact that God punishes the wicked seems dissolved because when he dies he awakens only to see the truth and say sorry.
At this point I suggest everyone join Bob Wilson in his corner for a great discussion. There Bob is presenting the issue that our obedience is required for salvation without abbrogating God’s grace. But as I hear UU it seems to me to present that our obedience is not neccessary for being saved. Now I realize UU will respond that obedience is neccessary, but that is the debate. Do the warning passages actually mean that those who persist in doing evil will not get eternal life, contrasted to those who seek God get eternal life? It appears a far stretch to me to say “you better get it right and cut off your hand, because your gonna awaken to total sorrow and get heaven?” - That makes no sense to me of the text.
Aug
Well first, my understanding is that God’s wrath is simply his disapprobation of sin manifested in the suffering of the guilty, whether this suffering be brought about through “natural” consequences (both physical and psychological/emotional pain), or fire and brimstone from heaven. Second, I think we need to be careful with our choice of words (and I’m guilty of this too!), for joy is specifically said to be a fruit of the Spirit. So I’m not sure I would use that word to describe the experience of those who are presently outside of God’s kingdom. While the unjust certainly benefit from God’s “common grace” in this life (in spite of their sin), I would be hesitant to call their experience “a great sense of joy” (and we can’t base our understanding of people’s subjective experience by appearances alone, which can be deceiving!). Paul says that “the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Rom 14:17). So I would not say “a great sense of joy” is so much an obstacle to entering God’s kingdom as it is one of the primary blessings enjoyed by those who have already entered God’s kingdom!
But why would Hitler need to be punished further if, when he finally sees the truth, he is no longer the same wicked man he used to be but a “new creation in Christ?” UU doesn’t ask one to believe that the wicked will be awakened to heavenly bliss while they’re still in a wicked state. UU simply affirms that people will no longer be in need of further punishment after they have ceased to be wicked (however this change in character is to be brought about). Since none of us knows how much or how little Hitler suffered during his lifetime for his sin, who are we to demand that God should punish him further for some indefinite length of time? While I’m sure many would delight in the idea of Hitler burning in hell for all eternity (or at least for a few million years or so) for his sin, what if God thinks that Hitler has been punished enough, and chooses to show him grace after death instead of making him suffer what we think he deserves to suffer?
If by obedience you mean conformity to God’s law, then I think it will always be necessary for salvation (and I agree 100% with Bob Wilson that this is no abrogation of God’s grace). There will be no disobedient sinners in heaven. But how do we become obedient now? Answer: by faith in the gospel of Christ. That is the only way by which man may presently become truly obedient (and consequently enjoy the spiritual blessings of God’s kingdom). Our faith in Christ is what produces our heartfelt obedience, thus making us righteous. But like I’ve said before, I believe that one day faith (which, it should be remembered, is itself a gift from God!) will be both impossible to exercise and unnecessary to our obedience. I believe Christ is going to subject all people to himself when he returns to abolish death. At this time, I think obedience will be for all people as spontaneous as their innate desire for happiness.
Aaron,
I agree about our choice of words but I have to say that if UU is going to use the lack of the joy of the Lord as being “God’s wrath” then I must object that it is incompatible with the rich being hard to enter the kingdom of Heaven. The reason being the rich are happy because they invest in the riches of this world and thus they cannot endure the wrath of God (in this life) since it’s hard for them to enter the kingdom of heaven. If the lack of joy qualifies as God’s wrath, then UU will have to prove that the rich are miserable. In fact I think Jesus is stating, they’re not miserable and that is a problem. They’re happy with the riches of this world and therfore missing God’s joy is completely ineffective on them.
I myself don’t have a problem with God stating that Adolph Hitler repented and therefore needs no further punishement. However, I tend to think this works both ways. What if Adolph Hitler did not repent and God does decide to punish for 1,000,000 years in hell? Would you complain? You probably already know I push Romans 9 on both calvinists and non-calvinists on these very grounds. I do see scripture saying that God will judge people “on that day” and how they live will determine if they receive further punishment or not.
Since I stand agnostic on the afterlife, I can only take the scriptures which seem to direct some measure of understanding concerning it. So saying that Adolph Hitler will not have to endure hell for any perdiod of time because upon his death he will experience God in a way which removes his delusions, only leaves me wondering who in the world knows this and where do they get this revelation. I see no problem and every reason to believe that God in fact has a “hell” for such people.
I believe upon our last earthly breath, we are given to look upon the face of Jesus, which is the face of God. Depending on one’s revelation in this life, of the person of Christ, such visage is either a hellish suffering experience or a heavenly reward, most likely it is a combination of both. We realize the full sufferings Christ, Who in supernal love, has shared the sufferings of all men. We also realize the glory of our resurrected King and His loving gift of being made joint heirs with Him in His glory. God not being a respecter of persons, metes out perfect and equal justice, by our view of the fullness of His person, body and all. Sounds good to me.
Blessings,
John
John,
Certainly if Jesus has met all punishment (penal sub) then why do people have to look upon him in some hellish sense? He already did that for them right? Their great suffering is already been executed by Christ. This makes no sense to me. In other words, it seems you too believe in post mortem punishment (some hellish experience).
What does make sense is how you live is serious and God will designate proper consequences both natural and coerced by his own judgement.
Aug
Aug,
I think you are minimizing what is being said. Lack of joy is the least of God’s wrath. Sin is a cancer which begets corruption. When one’s life is corrupted by sin he suffers unhappiness, guilt, shame, condemnation, broken relationships, and the list can go on and on depending upon the situation. We reap what we sow in this life, this is a fact. The warnings we are given in the scriptures are regarding the slippery slope of sin and its devastating consequences upon our lives. We are constantly encouraged to repent and have faith to avoid this condition which is called death, lost, perished, etc. While sinful acts might appeal to the flesh, their side effects are disasterous to our lives.
Todd
The person still needs to face what their mind interprets every event otherwise you are telling us God forces himself upon another’s mind to force them to think a different way rather than actually coming to the realization of the Lord has done. That original mindset still exists and must be renewed through repentance, voluntarily not coerced; therefore, regardless if God has taken upon Himself some suffering of all humanity a person still must face the consequence of their actions which has caused a certain mindset. This is what 1 John 4:13-18 is telling us. "We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. "
So, just as what John (member) said, depending on one’s revelation in this life, of the person of Christ, such visage is either a hellish suffering experience or a heavenly reward or a combination of both. In 1 John 4, that word for fear is KOLASIS, the same word for ‘punishment’ in Matthew 25:46 when Jesus said, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Understanding what KOLASIS is completely solves where the suffering comes from, and only when they come to the realization that Jesus is Lord will they be to set free. The Lord does not punish punitively, the Lord does not hold the sins of humanity against them, but until one recognizes this, they will not live in their complete freedom but He will wipe away every tear, and every tongue will confess and knee will bow that He is Lord to the Glory of the Father.
Brilliantly and succinctly said, Craig! And may I insert, in the pondering of such suffering, in the face of Christ, there is even joy. We count it all joy, when we are confronted with such purifying suffering in trial and tribulation, and there is no greater than this. Oh my, such a face has He, that there is no other like it, save the face of a man that has eternity to look upon it.
John
Indeed, the admonishment of joy is only based on the mindset of one who experiences it. Charles Stanley spoke of this giving a human analogy of a person enjoying a concert versus a fan of the band playing enjoying the concert. Both enjoy the concert, but one has a different mindset concerning it and interviewed later, both counted themselves lucky to get a seat.
That’s a great analogy, Craig. You are on fire, bro
I would only insert or emphasize every man’s suffering and reward is equal upon the occurrence of realizing the fullness of Christ’s face.
Craig, are you saying (and is this the UU understanding?) that on a future “day of judgment” that you referenced, all whose minds have not already been transformed, will experience a “hellish” (corrective) “punishment” (Mt. 25), that will in one moment invariably but “voluntarily” bring them to the required repentance and change of heart? Thanks in advance for the clarifications!
I’m still inclined to say (possibly due to my own lack of comprehension) that my objection was not answered. I fail to see where in the last few posts how it is that the rich being near impossible to enter the kingdom of God equates to they are in some sort of suffering in this life?
Along those lines, I would also raise Jesus’ own teachings that those who store their treasures here in this life will find they lose their lives in the next. Indeed Glenn is tapping this point with Thomas. Partly, I believe, for the same reasons: Glenn sees Tom as not believing in punishment after this life. And thus I would also have to conclude two things (as I stated before)
- If someone undergoes some sort of hellish reality by the consuming Fire of God after they die (then I would say that’s post mortem punishment).
- If someone undergoes some sort of hellish reality by the consuming Fire of God in this life (then I would say that’s pre-mortem punishment).
So to say there is no post-mortem punishment in my mind is to say that everyone dies belieiving. And that is exactly the point I’m saying is not consistent with storing one’s riches in this world. As Glenn raises the issue, saving one’s life would mean they get denied? I assume UU don’t believe anyone gets denied by Jesus?: “Depart from me, I never knew you”.
Aug
Your view seems to be similar to David’s initial perspective of the wicked as found in Psalm 73. I’ve actually seen this passage raised as an objection to the UU view that the wicked receive their punishment in this world, and that there is consequently no need for any further punishment beyond this mortal life. In verse 12, David declares, “Behold, these are the wicked; always at ease, they increase in riches.” However, this verse must be understood in the context of the rest of the chapter. When read in its entirety, this Psalm actually teaches the exact opposite of the common view of when and where the wicked are punished. David begins this psalm by exclaiming, “Truly God is good to Israel, to those who are pure in heart. But as for me, my feet had almost stumbled, my steps had nearly slipped” (vv. 1-2). How did David “almost stumble” and “nearly slip?” I believe he explains in the next verse: “For I was envious of the arrogant when I saw the prosperity of the wicked” (v. 3). David then goes on in vv. 4-12 to describe how he viewed the wicked, and the reason for his envy. However, David later realizes that he was mistaken in his understanding. He says (v. 15),
“If I had said, ‘I will speak thus,’ behold, I would have been untrue to the generation of your children. But when I thought how to understand this, it seemed to me a wearisome task, until I went into the sanctuary of God; then I discerned their end. Truly you set them in slippery places; you make them fall to ruin. How they are destroyed in a moment, swept away utterly by terrors! Like a dream when one awakes, O Lord, when you rouse yourself, you despise them as phantoms.”
David realized that the wicked do not go through life without being punished for their sins, and that he was wrong for being envious of them: “When my soul was embittered, when I was pricked in heart, I was brutish and ignorant; I was like a beast toward you…” (vv. 21-22) David ends this psalm with the following words of faith and hope: “For behold, those who are far from you shall perish; you put an end to everyone who is unfaithful to you. But for me it is good to be near God; I have made the Lord GOD my refuge, so that I may tell of all your works.”
David is comforted in knowing that God is just, and that the wicked will not go unpunished in this world. Their apparent “ease” throughout life is only an illusion; ultimately, all people must reap what they sow. Those who disregard their Creator will be punished according to their works, and those who make God their refuge will be blessed by him. But there is no indication that David believed this retribution would take place in another existence.
So why is it difficult for the rich to enter the kingdom of God? Why couldn’t the rich young man do what Christ said and thereby enter into life? I don’t think it’s because his wealth had made him so happy and content; I think it’s because he was in bondage to his wealth. His wealth had become his idol. He had become enslaved to it and, like the addict who wants to be free from his addiction but cannot free himself, the young man could not part with what would likely prove to be his ruin. Paul says, concerning wealth, “But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs” (1Tim 6:9-10). Similarly, James says, “Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you”(James 5:1). When? Sometime after they died? No; just a few verses later, James writes, “Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!”
Whether rich or poor, the way of the transgressor is hard (Prov 13:15). To minimize the temporal punishment that God sends upon the wicked in this life (and demand that they suffer more in another life) is, I think, to minimize God’s justice, which is just as active now as it will be in the future. No matter how rich a person may be, I don’t envy those who are living without regard for God - not because I think they’re going to have to spend a few thousand years or so being tormented in the flames after they die, but because of the condemnation they are presently under, which taints even the happiest moments of their life. The pleasures of sin are fleeting, and there is always a high price to be paid later - not in another life, but in the same one in which one sows to the flesh. Nowhere does Scripture teach that we sow in one life and reap in another. God himself declares that “there is no peace (shalom) for the wicked” (Isaiah 48:22; 57:21). Any ease the wicked may enjoy in life is merely in external comforts and material prosperity. But this is not true joy and peace; this is not abundant life - that which Paul says is “truly life” (1Tim 6:19). The existence of those who are far from God in their hearts, and who are “dead in trespasses and sins,” is a wretched one, full of confusion, inner turmoil, and dissatisfaction. In many cases the wicked end their days in un-fulfillment, regret, bitterness and heartache. The truth is that, appearances notwithstanding, the wicked are not at ease. They are instead “like the tossing sea; for it cannot be quiet, and its waters toss up mire and dirt” (Isaiah 57:20).
It’s irrelevant to me whether or not Hitler repented before he died, for I don’t think Scripture teaches that one’s repentance before death (or lack thereof) has any effect whatsoever on what happens to them after the resurrection (and as you know, I believe Scripture teaches only two conscious states of existence for man: this mortal existence, and our immortal existence after being raised from the dead). So I think the real question we should be asking is not, “In what state did Hitler die?” but, “In what state will he be raised?” And I submit that the Bible answers this question. Like all who die in Adam, Hitler is to be made alive in Christ in the twinkling of an eye, and thus forever saved from the sting of death, which is sin. For Hitler, the last enemy to be destroyed will be death. This means Hitler is not going to be raised immortal in a sinful state; he is to be raised subjected to Christ. The last sin he committed in this world as a mortal was the last sin he will ever commit. Same goes for you and me.
Moreover, I think it’s ironic that you mention Romans 9, because the “destruction” for which the “vessels of wrath” (i.e., the unbelieving Jews of Paul’s day) had been prepared by God clearly refers to a temporal judgment (Rom 9:27-29) - not some punishment in a disembodied state after death, or some judgment following the resurrection of the dead (which is when “all Israel will be saved”!). And no, I wouldn’t complain if it was revealed to me that it was in Hitler’s best interest that he be punished after he died for 1,000,000 years in “hell.” But it first needs to be shown from Scripture that there is indeed a “hell” after death in which Hitler (or anyone else) could potentially spend any amount of time before I understand such a hypothetical question to have any force.
I’m not sure what you mean when you say you’re agnostic on the afterlife. Does or does not Scripture reveal what happens after we die? I think it does, and you evidently think it provides enough evidence to believe in post-mortem punishment (for some people, at least)! So perhaps we should discuss the passages, one by one, in which you think a post-mortem hell is taught. If it can be shown to me that a post-mortem hell (of any duration) is indeed taught in Scripture, I’ll believe it. 
Where does Jesus teach that those who store up treasures here in this life will lose their lives after they die?
Again, the issue is not whether some people die in their sins (they do!), but are any to be raised in their sins? I deny that Scripture teaches this. And where is it said that Jesus was talking about a post-mortem experience when he spoke the words above? 
I have only a slight idea what the unitarian universalist believes and I have a different understanding of what ‘day of judgment’ is compared to what I find the majority believe it is.
This is my belief, a person who lives in fear will suffer fear even in the face of nothing to fear because that is the nature of fear. One must take a step of faith and change their mind (repentance) and when this happens everything changes. There is not one ‘moment’ in which KOLASIS changes a person, it is progressive and that is why it is called AIONIOS KOLASIS. They will suffer correction until their is no more need of correction. Everyone will come to that saving knowledge, each in their own order.